Interesting Loar copy on eBay

[mrmando]

If you were building a fake Loar and actually wanted to fool someone, you'd pick a serial number lower than 100879, and you wouldn't sign the label "R C Leonard" (if indeed I'm reading that correctly).

But that begs the question: Who was R C Leonard? Anyone seen one of these before?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Gibson-F-5-...baCs:rk:6:pf:0

[William Smith]

No never seen one but for sure has some age signs, it may sound pretty good but she sure isn't a Gibby!

[jim simpson]

If it is a Gibson (and it's not), it has a poorly executed scroll, no dovetail block extension (riser).

[slimt]

Not a good copy at all .

[William Smith]

Yes not a good looking copy but I would like to hear it, some ugly ducks can actually sound better than well made perfect looking mandolins, I have a few.
Also did ya look at the scale? It joins the body at the 12th fret rather odd, sure not like an F-5?

[mrmando]

Well, this one looks a little better ... and it has a riser block!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/F-5-Style-M...frcectupt=true

[Jeff Mando]

Looks like it has a genuine 70's Gibson case. My vote would be that it is a reworked 1970-75 era F5 or F12. That would account for the sloppy scroll, peghead inlay, tuners have been changed, but the shadow of the 70's type tuners is evident, it has the volute, fingerboard either replaced or modified, repro labels added, actually the 100XXX serial number would agree with 1970-75.....what'd ya think?

[mrmando]

Looks like it has a genuine 70's Gibson case. My vote would be that it is a reworked 1970-75 era F5 or F12 ... what'd ya think?

That sounds reasonable ... or at least I don't know enough about '70s Gibsons to say otherwise!

[William Smith]

Yes but whats strange is that the neck joins the body at the 12th fret, like the pre war 7's, 10's and 12's but the scroll on the back side is wrong big time?

[Jim Hilburn]

If not a Gibson then an Aria or other Matsumoku mandolin. The Gibsons usually had better figure on the back. But the peghead overlay isn't what Gibson did in those days.
As I've pointed out before, Gibsons share the Gotoh tuners, volute, mortised neck without crosspiece, pointy points with huge end protectors, and identical inlayed fingerboard as Aria and several other brand names. Of course the Gibsons were made in Kalamazoo while all the others were made in Japan. Total coincidence.

[Charles E.]

Well, this one looks a little better ... and it has a riser block!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/F-5-Style-M...frcectupt=true

Wait a second, that's a "Gabson", not a Gibson!

[Jim Hilburn]

Sorry, not seeing the riser block.

[CWRoyds]

If not a Gibson then an Aria or other Matsumoku mandolin. The Gibsons usually had better figure on the back. But the peghead overlay isn't what Gibson did in those days.
As I've pointed out before, Gibsons share the Gotoh tuners, volute, mortised neck without crosspiece, pointy points with huge end protectors, and identical inlayed fingerboard as Aria and several other brand names. Of course the Gibsons were made in Kalamazoo while all the others were made in Japan. Total coincidence.

I think you are right on the money.
This is an Aria in every way but the headstock logo and flowerpot.
Check it compared to this Aria on Ebay
https://reverb.com/item/2098932-the-...unburst-w-case

The fretboard and tailpiece are exact match with the Aria, and the general construction/finish is basically identical.

[CWRoyds]

Well, I did find a 70s Gibson with that fretboard inlay, but I still think the Ebay one is an Aria changed to be a fake "Gibson".
This one in the link below just looks better overall.
https://www.12fret.com/sold/gibson-f...4-consignment/

[Jim Hilburn]

Once again, in 69-70 Gibson was aquired by Norlin. In 70, they quit making Epiphones in Kalamazoo and farmed them out to Aria in Japan. Mostly guitars but mandolins also.Aria had the actual construction done by Matsumoku. So at nearly the same time Gibson mandolins and Aria mandolins and then many more like Alvarez and Ibanez... and Epiphone began sharing nearly identical features.

[Jeff Mando]

The reason I mentioned the case was that although a 70's Gibson case is not particularly rare, it would be unlikely that someone would purchase one with the intent of deceiving someone, especially if they were trying to make someone think it was Loar era. I think they could have found an older case, if deception was the intended goal. Therefore, I think it probably came with the mandolin, a 70's Gibson. Someone mentioned the peghead overlay was not what Gibson was doing in the 70's, but a simple search on Reverb of 70's F's will show you they did indeed on certain models, i.e., "The Gibson" with flowerpot. Could be a similar import that was modified, but doubtful someone would track down a 70's Gibson case......

Of course, we now live in the age of the internet and if you have the money, you can track down a vintage case for most anything on eBay, Reverb, etc....but that was not always the situation. In fact, 35 years ago, counterfeiters got so good with copying rare Gibson electrics that nobody could tell, for certain, a copy from an original, with a 50's Explorer or Flying V -- keep in mind the copies had all original parts, removed from other legitimate Gibsons -- collectors and experts soon found a common theme -- ALL THE COPIES HAD NON-ORIGINAL CASES! (due to the fact that so few guitars were made in the first place) So, at that point in time if the guitar didn't have the original case, it was suspect in that big-money arena. That's why I mention the case, even though the value is anywhere near a vintage Explorer, it still can be used to authenticate an instrument or at least provide some background, IMHO.

[Jim Hilburn]

OK, Jeff, I'll buy that. The inlays and pegheads look much more alike than I first thought.
I think it may have been re-finned. Original Gibsons had the yellow finish that yellowed the binding and that doesn't look like a period correct sunburst.

[Drew Streip]

I’m an amateur, but I’m not seeing anything that resembles either a real Gibson or the Aria linked above. The general workmanship just looks sloppy — uneven curves, asymmetrical scrolls all around. The back scroll looks like a broken thumb. The “peaks” on the peghead are rounded beyond what would happen after even heavy wear. In comparison, The Aria looks generally flawless.

How often are factory instruments sent out the door if they don’t match the shape of the template? If I had any, I would put my money on a one-man copy.

[Bernie Daniel]

If you were building a fake Loar and actually wanted to fool someone, you'd pick a serial number lower than 100879, and you wouldn't sign the label "R C Leonard" (if indeed I'm reading that correctly).

But that begs the question: Who was R C Leonard? Anyone seen one of these before?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Gibson-F-5-...baCs:rk:6:pf:0

Interesting Martin!

I have one very similar to that one but with out the fake Gibson labels -- I've been trying to find out who made it and I think I have a pretty good idea. But I will not mention the name publically because I sense this person does not want to be identified. Here are pics of the one I have.

I think mine is better made than the one on eBay though and it seems to have a dove tail neck joint as well a attachment at the proper fret and also the plastic cross piece (divider).

[Jim Hilburn]

Drew, check the link CW posted for 12fret and compare that Gibson to the one in question here.
Bernie, whatever yours is it doesn't have several of the features the 70's Gibsons or imports have. Worm under tuners, no volute, the flowerpot doesn't have the look on the Gibson and has the 15th fret crosspiece just to mention a few.

[Bernie Daniel]

Drew, check the link CW posted for 12fret and compare that Gibson to the one in question here.
Bernie, whatever yours is it doesn't have several of the features the 70's Gibsons or imports have. Worm under tuners, no volute, the flowerpot doesn't have the look on the Gibson and has the 15th fret crosspiece just to mention a few.

Maybe some confusion about my post? The mandolin I showed in those photos is a copy (i.e., not a Gibson) no doubt about that. After a lot of "research" I now believe I know who made it even --however I do not feel at liberty to say publicly since I can't prove it. I was not trying to give the impression that it was a '70s Gibson copy rather it is clear that the one I have was an attempt at making a copy of a '20s Gibson F-5?

[Bernie Daniel]

Looks like the ad for the mandolin in the OP has been ended? Did it originally have a price of $5K on it? Maybe the owner has been reading the Mandolin Cafe?

For some reason eBay linked me to the the add for the other mandolin

[Jeff Mando]

It is listed under sold items in green, which either means it sold, or was "sold" to a shill bidder. In the latter case, the seller usually relists it in a few days. Seller appears to mostly deal in sports cards and memorabilia, so maybe he is just very uninformed..........then again, if he did ANY research and thinks he just sold a 1923 F-5 for $5K -- well, he isn't a very good researcher, IMHO. OTOH, if he can sell a reworked 70's Gibson for $5K and the sale "sticks" -- he is a genius and my hat is off to him! (when I worked at a vintage guitar shop, I would often congratulate the boss on an eBay sale and his (grumpy) response was always the same, "we'll see if it sticks!")

And, yes, that is a new and annoying thing eBay recently started. If you click a saved link that has sold, it redirects you to what they think you may be also interested in...........thanks, eBay!

[CWRoyds]

Ahhhhh, I see the issue.
The original eBay listing had been removed, and I think I was commenting on the Gibson F5 with fancy inlay that is now on the page.
I had linked to the Aria only because I was talking about that Gibson F5, and not the "Loar" copy.
My mistake.
Sorry

[FLATROCK HILL]

The listing has ended, but I believe the subject of the OP can still be viewed by clicking the picture of the ended listing. There have been quite a few F5s discussed and enough pictures posted to cause some confusion. Maybe we're not all talking about the same mandolin.

The 'Loar Copy' that I see in the eBay link (post #1) looks to me to have been built by a rank amateur. Certainly no Gibson. Even a '70s Aria would be embarrassed to be seen with it.

But as suggested above, it may sound great.