Fiddle (not mando content)

[Pittsburgh Bill]

I once read an article regarding children learning violin vs. fiddle that I have not been able to find again as I would like to send it to my neice.
The writer propsed that parents of children learning violin in school (or wherever) should emphasize calling it a fiddle rather than a violin. It also went on to say that parents should seek out instructors that mix fiddle type tunes along with traditional learning material.
The point of this was that this type of musical training results in a substantial increse in the possibility of a child student to not want to quit their training. This method of instruction also results in a substantial increase in the child continuing to play into adulthood.
I guess because a fiddle is thought to be way cooler in some circles than a violin. Makes sense to me. How many high french horn players continue to play french horn into adulthood? Ofcourse, no good music training for a child can be interpeted as bad.

[pops1]

I don't know about that, but I have always said that band instructors should teach kids how the scales they want them to practice can relate to playing leads to music the kids enjoy. If that is done with every student in band they would play more, get better, play better for the music the instructor has them play for concerts, and most of all possibly be a life long player as it would be more enjoyable for them.

[Doug Brock]

The goals of "violin" and "fiddle" playing are sort of different, too. A violinist is generally pushing long practice periods (as a piano major, my general goal was six hours of focused practice per day), day after day, year after year, trying to perfect repertoire. Lots of performance pressure, lots of pressure from parents and peers. Amateur fiddlers seem to be generally more laid back, lol, playing for fun and social interaction, and starting with relatively easy fiddle tunes, though of course improvisation and fancier arrangements leave the fiddler an open-ended challenge for life-time development.

In some ways, I can see the "lowly" fiddler as having the potential to be more musical than the violinist, since the fiddler needs to understand chord progressions, harmony, different scales and arpeggios, how to interact on the fly with other musicians, etc.

I can see why an amateur violinist would have difficulty playing for a lifetime, while fiddlers would be drawn to a lifetime of playing.

[Ranald]

I play fiddle and continually run into people who "used to play violin in high school", or even classical violinists who can't play because they "don't have music" with them." I always carry music in my head and heart, so I've never had that problem. What is the purpose of teaching music in schools? When I went to school in the 1960's -- and this is still true of many school programs -- training was choral or orchestral, i.e., "high art." There's nothing wrong with that, but it trains a few elite professional concert musicians, a few more serious amateurs who play in community orchestras or chamber groups, and hundreds of thousands of others who "used to play in high school." It's a bit like our formal children's hockey program in Canada, which every eight-year-old player knows is a training system for the NHL, which will only employ a fraction of a percentage of those who start out. Many teenage boys and more girls drop out, as they realize that will never achieve the ultimate goal of the system (though there is a professional women's league now). Personally, I wish most kids could learn fiddle, guitar, ukelele, banjo, flute, or other instruments that they can enjoy for the rest of their lives, without the company of forty fellow musicians, and without the pressure of being constantly judged. The idea of a teacher deciding who fails at fiddling or other folk music annoys me. I'm sure that classical training has many benefits, but classical musicians often make poor fiddlers, because they're so bound by rules that they can't hear or appreciate the musical idiosyncrasies and local accents, and, instead of imitating them, "correct" them.

[Bob Buckingham]

I have played fiddle for decades and still teach it. I have found that often cellists do better than violinist at fiddle, and I think that is in part due to the way they use the bow. Bowing is the biggest difference in violin and fiddle styles. Knowledge of scales, arpeggios, chords are essential to being a successful musician IMHO. Work is the key to success. If it were easy, everyone would do it. It is not my first instrument of choice after many decades but it is fun to play at home and rarely out but I favor other instruments these days. Like mandolin. So much less stress again IMHO.

[Randi Gormley]

I've known fiddle players who started out as violinists so there is a crossover if a violinist wants to expand -- after all, an instrument is just the tool you use to make music -- but i don't know if focusing on folk music over classical will turn a kid into a lifelong musician. You can be a driven kid -- that sort of drive makes you a musician with or without outside influences -- in any genre. What you want is to encourage the not-so-driven kid to stick with music or to go back to it later in life. And i think a lot of that has to do with the music program, either one parent-induced/selected or school induced/selected. When i was a kid, our public school music program was spectacular -- because of the director. Yes, there were kids who goofed off (I don't believe I ever actually practiced more than a bare minimum if that) since everybody who participated got an A, but looking at my co-bandmates 45 years later, a ton of us are still making music as amateurs -- people in church choirs, people like me who play a specific genre and go to workshops on my vacation time just for the fun of it, people like one of my best friends who played in a pickup baroque recorder consort in her spare time -- and I'd trace it back to Mr. Kaura. It helped that my parents were encouraging, but my experience in band was what stood me in stead when i went back to music after my kids were older.

OTOH, the fact my son and older daughter absolutely refuse to engage in self-made music i put directly onto the music program and directors they encountered as school kids -- where my son failed eighth-grade orchestra because he couldn't do the pull-out "private" lessons because they conflicted with his math support class, and where my daughter played trumpet unhappily for 2 years in high school in a particularly professional-concert-focused band where only the kids who were Julliard-quality or Julliard-bound were tolerated. And this despite the fact my husband-the-guitar-player and I both have spent decades making folk music for fun.

[LadysSolo]

Part of it is also the person's personality. My mom made all of us take piano lessons, I am the only one who still plays (my brother and sister have no interest.) My brother played guitar as a kid, and played trombone in band, and I don't think he can play anything any more. My sister played a little bit of ukulele, and she plays nothing anymore. I play guitar, mandolin, piano, organ, harpsichord, soprano and alto recorder, and am teaching myself oboe and violin (I had a semester of woodwinds in college, so a little background for oboe.) But I WANT to do it, and my brother and sister (raised in the same house and went to the same school system with same band and choir directors) have no interest. So part of it (at least) depends on the person.

[Rewjeo]

I don't know that the "fiddle" is any cooler than the "violin." As a violinist (primarily classical, but always hoping to do more fiddle), I have two thoughts. For one, it's just musical breadth, and I think having a more holistic understanding of music leads to a greater interest in music as a whole. You can appreciate it more and that also helps you play it with more musicality. The other one is: easy fiddle music is way more interesting than easy classical music. It takes years and years before you'll dig into the really great classical music, since it was written for professionals and frequently virtuosos. Fiddle music, largely written by and for amateurs, is much more accessible. It's something a kid can have more fun with as they improve, before they can play the more interesting classical music (and, of course, do much more interesting things with folk music, too).

There also is this perception that classical music only happens with orchestras, but there's a lot of great chamber music you can do on your own or in small groups. If you like Baroque music, as a classical violinist you've got lots of great options with Bach, Biber, Westhoff, Pisendel, etc. Then, with the likes of Ernst, Ysaye, etc. later on, you've got some great (albeit much harder) solo Romantic works. If you have a friend who plays piano, then you've got an inexhaustible supply of music.

[catmandu2]

That's so nicely said rewjeo. That's right there's so much emotion to be wrought by just a few notes, some rhythm, or a song.

[sbhikes]

I took piano as a child for 5 years. I don't play piano now. I can barely even read music anymore.

I sang in the choir in high school. Those are some of my fondest high school memories. I think memories are worthwhile.

My dad taught me to play the recorder and we would play classical music for church in a little quartet. I also played in a handbell choir in church. I think a lot of people go on to play music for church. Even though I no longer have any relationship to what I feel is a morally bankrupt religion, I cherish all the memories from my youth in church, especially the memories of all the music I participated in.

I was always jealous of the flute player in church so I took lessons. I quit after a short time. Many decades later I taught myself to play Irish flute and whistle. I can't say I'm any good at it, but I'm happy I can play them.

I finally settled on mandolin and fiddle because of the old-time jam I found my way to. It makes me very happy to be able to do both, no matter how amateurish it may be.

I guess all this is to say that all the musical education of my youth was worth it even if I never ended up where I started. The memories, the skills, the malleable brain I was given the opportunity to take advantage of (my piano lessons started at age 7), the getting to be a part of something with other people in church, school, my community. It was all worth it and the quitting and starting over didn't really hurt and neither did it hurt that there was never a chance of making music a career. The connection to my community and the friends I've made along the way are worth more to me than any career aspirations or even any continuity of initially-chosen instrument.

[DougC]

I play fiddle as well as violin. And they give access to different groups of friends.

For a long time I became more Irish as an Irish fiddler, hanging out with people from Ireland, eating Irish food, learning Irish dances.

I did the same with klezmer music. Attending KlezKanada near Montreal for a number of years I learned all about Jewish culture, food, history and language; yiddish. And somewhere in their archives I appear as a fiddler in the student band and again in the first ever klezmer mandolin ensemble. I made friends from all over the world. Here's their website http://klezkanada.org/

Then I started classical music lessons at the young age of 50, and now at age 66 I have a whole different group of friends who play in our community orchestra. This group is not focused on ethnic connections but it has a common background of American culture. (Not withstanding a violist born in Japan and another from Venezuela). So Western Culture, I suppose.

The orchestra itself is interesting in that it provides an informal setting for people who want to return to an instrument after a number of years. You can learn more about the New Horizons organization here. https://newhorizonsmusic.org/

[sbhikes]

My dad joined an orchestra as an adult. He chose the oboe because nobody plays the oboe and he figured if he could figure it out he would be first chair. The oboe sounded so horrible as he squawked and squeaked on that thing, but by god, he was first chair in the orchestra and it made him happy.

[OneChordTrick]

Music at school nearly put me off for life. It was run by a pair of sadists who’s idea of teaching was to make you learn theory without any context; I once knew how many sharps or flats there were in each key signature but no explanation of why it was relevant. “Musical Appreciation” was listening to a piece of classical music whilst following the score; every so often the needle would be lifted and some poor hapless soul asked what bar we were on. Those who had ability became the teachers’ favourites everyone else ignored or received scorn. We also had to learn an instrument for the first year. I chose flute but couldn’t get a sound out of the battered specimen I was loaned which made practice difficult! I gave up after 6 weeks.

In my late teens I dabbled with guitar but it was 40 or so years later that I decided to try the mandolin and began enjoying practical music.

[Elliot Luber]

Some violin teachers, like one I had as a child, are a bit over the top with hard exercises. They make great players, but many quit before they ever reach proficiency. Thus, there has to be a balance between immediate and long-term gratification or the student will not love to play. This one teacher was a well-known musician, but would hit me when I played something wrong twice, so I quit. I picked it up again with a teacher who was a better human being as well as a better teacher. A friend never did and it's because of the teacher. Who knows what he might be playing today.

[Mandobart]

I chose to take up classical violin at the relatively advanced age of 10. My parents supported and encouraged me, but never nagged or forced me to play. I also chose to learn bluegrass fiddle from a local player in my hometown when I was 13. I really enjoyed both, though I was a pretty intermediocre player.

After high school I joined the navy and had very little time for playing music. After that I was in college, studying mechanical engineering - again not much time for music. Then I got my first real job and started a family. I didn't really get back to regularly playing music until 18 years ago, when I moved in across the street from another guitar picker and we would get together and play. Then I learned about some local acoustic music organizations that held weekly jams and started making up for lost time.

Most of my friends from orchestra in school, especially the very best players, either quit playing after high school (or college, if they were good enough to land a musical scholarship) and tell me that they haven't played since. I personally don't think it has much to do with "violin" vs "fiddle" - its more that life just intrudes with other demands as we grow up. Becoming part of a musical community got me back into making music a regular part of my life again.

[Northwest Steve]

I have a 16 year old daughter who plays in her HS orchestra. She was required to play an instrument from 5 to 8th grade. When she first started in the school orchestra things seemed to progress painfully slow. We were introduced to the local bluegrass/Celtic/old time music scene so we started her in fiddle lessons. She took off like a rocket and could play songs right a way and you could really see/hear the progress. It was fun and she seemed to enjoy it. As progressed in orchestra things caught up to her and she was having difficulty reading more complicated pieces and some what with technique. She did take violin lessons for a while to catch up. So in our experience there she did miss some foundational steps by taking fiddle lessons. I also see her friends that started out with piano and they seem to have a good understanding of music and a definite advantage. So my advise would be to try to find a classical teacher that also plays fiddle. They are hard to come by but there are some if you look. That way they can do something like the Suzuki Method but mix in some fiddle tunes to make it fun and let the kids have some success.

[Ranald]

So my advise would be to try to find a classical teacher that also plays fiddle. They are hard to come by but there are some if you look. That way they can do something like the Suzuki Method but mix in some fiddle tunes to make it fun and let the kids have some success.

But again it gets back to the question, "What is the purpose of teaching music in schools?" or why is a person learning music generally? If a person wants to be a classical or theoretically sophisticated musician, they definitely should take classical lessons. If a person wants to enjoy playing traditional music as a social or even commercial pastime, they don't need all that education. My daughter wanted to play fiddle because her father and uncle were fiddlers and her grandmother played jigs, reels, and waltzes on piano. After starting fiddle, she took piano at school because she wanted to play it, then continued on with formal piano lessons from a jazz musician with a music degree. She played in a group of young fiddlers, but refused to study violin at school, saying that she neither wanted to play music that she didn't like nor did she want the stress of being marked on performance. She was afraid that she'd be turned off fiddle if playing the violin became "work." She's twenty-five now and regularly plays both instruments quite well.

I had only minimal musical training at school. We all got singing back then, but I never did instrumental training except for learning recorder (definitely not my instrument) with the rest of the class. I learned fiddle informally, and by taking lessons from fiddlers. I sometimes feel handicapped by my lack of formal musical training. I can't read well, and I've had timing problems that I likely wouldn't have if I'd been in the school orchestra. Furthermore, I'm in my sixties and slowly learning helpful theory, a bit at a time. On the other hand, I wasn't turned off playing music because of unpleasant experiences in school. I'm not attacking school orchestras and such, but it is only one approach to learning music. Buffy Sainte-Marie, who's quite a sophisticated musician, but doesn't read music, said she enjoyed working in Nashville where many of the musicians were self-taught non-readers and were easier for her to communicate with. A musical education sometimes -- but not always -- interferes with a person's ability to follow a local tradition (Appalachian, Cape Breton, Metis), as those who are overly trained in what music "should" sound like, sometimes want to "improve" the music with vibrato or other techniques that they've learned, or convert folk tunes into "sophisticated" music, as orchestral composers did in the past.

I don't think there are any simple answers to the many questions that come up in this thread. Your kid isn't my kid, so they'll have different needs. I think that if a parent wants their child to have a formal musical education, get them a classical teacher. If your child wants to learn traditional music, find a fiddler to teach them. Don't teach them fiddle as a route to being a classical violinist. And if your child is unhappy studying music (I'm not addressing this to you, Steve), ask whether you're creating unpleasant associations that will put them off playing for life.

Regarding Post #13 (above), Many people are poor teachers. During my childhood in the 1950's and 60's, it was acceptable for teachers to bully and degrade students, hit them when they made mistakes, and generally make nervous wrecks of some. In truth, others seemed to thrive within such a system. Such teaching never worked for me though, and I'm glad that it's becoming unacceptable these days. I learned my do-ray-me's in grade 2, and like OneChordTrick, was always told to practice my scales and arpeggios (by both books and fiddlers). Until I was nearly 60, no one ever explained why. With a new understanding, these exercises suddenly became easier to practice.

I'm enjoying this thread.

[allenhopkins]

Suzuki violin classes I've audited (for Arts Council funding) have learned bowing patterns like "Mississippi Hot Dog" (say the syllables, note the rhythm), and played "Bile 'Em Cabbage Down," and if that ain't fiddlin', what am?

Getting the basic vocabulary of a violin/fiddle -- how you hold it, where the fingers go, where the notes are -- I'd guess would be possible whether you were taking "violin" or "fiddle."

Deciding whether your instrumental activity was a disciplined, structured, precise approach, or something more informal and recreational, is influenced by a whole range of interests, aptitudes, goals and experiences. Taskmaster teachers have turned off many a young aspiring musician. On the other hand, the same teaching style can imbue a developing instrumentalist with excellent technique and a lifelong dedication to music. Depends.

I'm currently teaching classes in ukulele, harmonica and mandolin, sporadically, for a couple of agencies here. I tell my students not to practice, but to play -- because "practice is what they make you do, playing is what you want to do." Or as Mark Twain put it in Tom Sawyer, Chapter 2:

If he had been a great and wise philosopher, like the writer of this book, he would now have comprehended that Work consists of whatever a body is obliged to do, and that Play consists of whatever a body is not obliged to do. And this would help him to understand why constructing artificial flowers or performing on a tread-mill is work, while rolling ten-pins or climbing Mont Blanc is only amusement.

Or why practicing the violin is work, and playing the fiddle is, well, play.

[Pittsburgh Bill]

My experience has been like some on this site but certainly not all. I started playing after my career started winding down. Prior to that my life was filled with college, work, and most of all raising children. What little fun time I had was devoted to sports cars. Then music finally took over when I bought my first $69.00 mandolin.
For me I had no teachers so I got to practice what I wanted. After a while I bought a book titled,I think, Learn to Read Music. This gave me a new approach to music while I still fell back on my previous experience. Recently I began playing mandola in a mandolin orchestra. While I am no where near the skill level of the life long readers and classical trained musicians, my ability to read is improving and I have gained a new appreciation for playing classical style pieces. Beyond a new appreciation I find the experience very challenging. This is especially true on pieces that have complicated timing or change keys several times.
I'm having fun and I think both approaches to music build off of each other.
I started this post resulting from something I had read for ideas as I don't think my (great) niece is having as much fun as she should be playing classical violin. Meanwhile she seems to enjoy learning a tune I play (I do not play violin/fiddle) and even sent me a text to tell me she has taught it to some of her classmates.

[Ranald]

Suzuki violin classes I've audited (for Arts Council funding) have learned bowing patterns like "Mississippi Hot Dog" (say the syllables, note the rhythm), and played "Bile 'Em Cabbage Down," and if that ain't fiddlin', what am?

Suzuki does seem to be very good at both both developing the ear and learning rhythms, both of which are important to fiddling.

[ChesterJones]

I’ve got a feeling that Paganini could have squeaked out a fiddle tune or two if so inspired, and with his own original twist! And Itzak played some pretty serious klezmer without any previous experience, tho granted, he admits hearing a lot of the music growing up. At this level the similarities are more obvious than the differences. Playing both violin and fiddle seems most appealing to me, tho i play neither...

[John Soper]

As a kid in the 50s and 60s, my classically trained pianist of a mother had all 6 of us kids taking piano lessons at 4 years of age (she was fired from her job as a music teacher in the public schools because of pregnancy). 4 of us took Suzuki violin lessons and played violin through high school, one started flute in elementary school, and one played trumpet in junior high school and high school. I ended up picking up guitar in junior high school and gave up violin after I jammed a finger playing football. We were all exposed to music in our public schools (something that has gone the way of the dodo bird in most school systems today) through choir, instrumental ensembles, and musical theater. My siblings and I were fortunate to have at least some instructors that emphasized the "play" in music.

Over the years I have played in a variety of local bands including folk, bluegrass, rock and swing music. I started playing mandolin (self-taught) in the 70s when I was part of a" guitarmy" that needed other musical textures. I tried to pick up fiddle when we had a young child, but had lost bow control and my wife banished the fiddle (as well as the banjo) from the house. As an oncologist, music has given me hours of enjoyment and a refuge from the stress of my daily profession.

As for the other siblings, 2 are professional musicians - one is a violinist and the other a jazz guitarist - one plays flute and keyboards in a Celtic influenced band, and one sings in an a cappella group that turns and competes nationally, and still performs in local musical theater. Only one of us is not playing music on a daily basis.

My kids had very poor exposure to music in school and despite exposure to recreational music, have never pursued any active participation. My daughter took lessons and competed in classical piano through high school, but now in her 30s doesn't touch a piano. One of my sons is able to finger-pick and flat-pick a guitar but has never gotten into the social aspect of music, and his guitar collects dust under his bed. My other son briefly played saxophone but never bonded with music.

I apologize for this extended rant, but I lament the lack of exposure to recreational music in today's educational systems. Music programs are among the first programs to be cut because of public school budgeting and often are not included in the curriculum of charter schools because of the cost. My quality of life would be a lot poorer if I had not been exposed early and encouraged to pursue music as recreation.

Pick on!