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Thread: Redwood Tops????

  1. #1
    Pittsburgh Bill
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    Default Redwood Tops????

    I posted this in info about Mandolins but this may be a better thread to get feedback from builders.

    The top on my beloved mandola suffered catastrophic failure two days ago. It had a redwood top with maple sides and back. While it did not have the finish detail of a high end instrument, it did play and have to my ears a better tone than any mandola (even high cost dolas) I ever heard or played.
    The builder, a man of integrity, is standing behind my dola and is replacing the top. It is now in transit.
    We discussed a stronger top and currently are leaning to spruce. I hate the thought of possibly losing the beautiful sound it had. At the time of construction a few builders active on this site warned of the frailty of redwood. From those more experienced than me can any one suggest a wood type that may be closer to what I had without the fragile nature of redwood?
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Redwood Tops????

    What does catastrophic failure mean?
    Did it fold up while you were playing it?
    Last edited by Eric Oliver; Feb-12-2019 at 12:54pm. Reason: Spelling

  3. #3

    Default Re: Redwood Tops????

    My Silverangel has a redwood top, but as it is smaller,perhaps it is not an issue. It is also X braced, and has a more pronounced arch to both top and back. But the tone is both warm and loud. I feel your concern. The tone is lovely.
    Silverangel A
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    Default Re: Redwood Tops????

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Oliver View Post
    What does catastrophic failure mean?
    Did it fold up while you were playing it?
    Two MAJOR cracks and splintering on each side of the sound hole all the way to the top.
    Big Muddy EM8 solid body (Mike Dulak's final EM8 build)
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    Default Re: Redwood Tops????

    Quote Originally Posted by Pittsburgh Bill View Post
    We discussed a stronger top and currently are leaning to spruce. I hate the thought of possibly losing the beautiful sound it had. At the time of construction a few builders active on this site warned of the frailty of redwood. From those more experienced than me can any one suggest a wood type that may be closer to what I had without the fragile nature of redwood?
    I am no builder, so take the following with a grain of salt. But I once owned a redwood topped mandolin, and in doing some research, I seem to recall reading that redwood needs to be carved to thicker graduations than spruce as a top wood. It's not necessarily a matter of the wood being inherently frail or fragile, just different. For a builder unfamiliar or inexperienced with redwood, there might be something of a learning curve.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pittsburgh Bill View Post
    Two MAJOR cracks and splintering on each side of the sound hole all the way to the top.
    Did the instrument suffer any impacts or environmental changes?
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    Default Re: Redwood Tops????

    Out of curiosity, what is the age of the instrument.?

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    Default Re: Redwood Tops????

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Hildreth View Post
    Out of curiosity, what is the age of the instrument.?
    Almost two years old. No impact, excessive temperature or humidity fluctuations. Well cared for and protected but played almost daily.
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    Default Re: Redwood Tops????

    Quote Originally Posted by Pittsburgh Bill View Post
    Almost two years old. No impact, excessive temperature or humidity fluctuations. Well cared for and protected but played almost daily.
    Were there no changes to the instrument’s geometry over the last two years, such as top settling / sinkage requiring the bridge to be raised?
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    Default Re: Redwood Tops????

    No, but for the last two days prior to breakage it kept going flat and would need small adjustments to come back in tune. No visual or playing changes. I did not see any change in action with exception to finding a little more finger pressure needed to play the first two frets on the A course. I knew something wasn't right, but I could not detect visual changes. Even moving up the neck the action appeared not to change though it may have ever so minutely.
    It was in one of these retunings where the C course was a little flat that I heard my big crack.
    I feel equally bad for the builder as he was very proud of the beautiful tone of this instrument.
    Big Muddy EM8 solid body (Mike Dulak's final EM8 build)
    Kentucky KM-950
    Weber Gallatin A Mandola "D hole"
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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Redwood Tops????

    I built a 'dola with a western red cedar top that has held up fine for over 5 years. Redwood and cedar are similar woods in terms of stiffness and density (generally lighter and less stiff than spruce) and are said to produce tops similar in sound, though I have no direct experience with using redwood so I am no authority on that.
    Here's a link to the mandola and the wood that I used.
    https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...amlett-mandola

    PS
    It might be that the design of the mandola is not particularly good or that the redwood top was carved to thin for the design. In other words, the failure might not be the fault of the top wood but might be the fault of the builder. Of course, I don't know who the builder is nor what the design of the instrument is so I could be way off base here, but I figured it might be worth mentioning.

  12. #11

    Default Re: Redwood Tops????

    I would agree with you about catastrophic.
    That sucks.
    Oval hole?
    Cracked from edges of the oval to the neck block?

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    Default Re: Redwood Tops????

    Both redwood and Western red cedar are softer and not as strong as spruce. For relative hardness, look up Janka hardness and for strength, modulus of rupture. I can certainly see where an instrument made with either of those two top woods should not be carved with the same specs as spruce, and might also require an x bracing pattern for strength. Spruce braces of course.

    I’ve wondered before what sort of top Eastern Aromatic Cedar would make. Completely different species from Western, harder and stronger than even spruce. I’ve seen it on Dulcimers. But it’s always quite knotty, and I suppose that’s the problem. Port Orford Cedar has an impressive looking set of specs. I played a guitar once with Port Orford and it was magnificent sounding. Weber came out this year with a limited series of mandolins with Port Orford tops and myrtlewood back and sides. I’d be curious to play one.
    Don

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  14. #13

    Default Re: Redwood Tops????

    I built a curly redwood mandolin with a seriously under-built top. It didn't shatter, it just sagged to the point that the strings were touching the fretboard.

    I built a straight-grained mandolin with a seriously under-built top. Same story. Just sagged.

    I didn't sell either of them, still have them. That was years, three shops, three kids, 5 houses, 4 jobs, two cities ago.
    Now I build my redwood instruments with tops 50%-70% thicker than a spruce top (but about the same mass).

    I almost built a mandolin with a curly redwood top. It had a sap line through it, looked like a ring/grain, but it was obviously sap. I didn't use it because I thought it would shatter. I still have that top and think about using it, but then I see that sap line and think, is it worth it? Nope.

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    Default Re: Redwood Tops????

    Some years ago, at a dealer's suggestion, an A style mandolin, (waited 4 months for it), from a nationally known instrument shop from an up and coming maker.
    I specified maple and spruce. It came with an eggplant purple "SUNBURST" on the top that also had a 1 1/2" jagged line that had every appearance of being a crack. The workmanship was at best "hobby shop special"/ skilled amateur.
    I had it one day. Sounded bad, needed constant tuning and I did not order eggplant purple nor did I order ( which I discovered with a mirror) a redwood top which was flabby and sagging. It played badly, sounded awful and was unattractive.
    It cost me $175 not to own the instrument. Dealer would not accept responsibility as it was "custom ordered" I did not order that instrument. I did not want redwood, a crack in the top nor purple, nor ill fitting tuners etc. And this is a very famous shop with whom I had done business for over 20 years, and now the maker is quite famous. .

    This cured me of ordering instruments and paying in advance. Believing dealer's BS or other player's raves.

    I will never have another redwood topped instrument. It is not unlike, and in my opinion worse than, western red cedar.'Full disclosure: In a former life I hustled instrument makers wood, and did some of the pioneering of sinker redwood to include the "Lucky Strike Tree, with Craig Carter. I thickness sanded much of it on my sander at my shop.
    I am not unfamiliar with redwood. I have a considerable amount of "instrument grade' very old redwood in my shop awaiting my next canoe construction.

    Just my opinion and experience.. yours may vary.

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    Registered User Mandobart's Avatar
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    Default Re: Redwood Tops????

    Western redcedar and redwood are my favorite tonewoods (I'm just a player, not a builder). I have two WRC mandolins; one built in 1998 (f hole) and one in 2010 (oval hole), one WRC octave mandolin built in 2005 (oval hole), a WRC Hardanger fiddle built in 2017, a redwood 10 string mandola built in 2009 (oval hole) and a 10 string mandocello built in 2014 (oval hole). On each the grain is very tight and straight. I love the tone and timbre of each instrument. I would not hesitate to commission another WRC or redwood instrument from either of the builders (Sonny Morris and Tom TJ Jessen).

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    Default Re: Redwood Tops????

    I have only built one redwood topped mandolin so far, but intend to make more eventually. The redwood I had was very stiff and not lightweight like Cedar, so there is redwood and there is other redwood, i.e. it varies a lot. That mandolin was made similar to how I make my Spruce mandolins. I have some guitar tops that are lightweight redwood, not so stiff, and these will need to be thicker than a Spruce top. In guitar circles it is known to be somewhat brittle, but sounds like Cedar on steroids. The redwood mandolin I made is still fine, and I purchased more redwood when I made it because it sounded great. Like John, I would guess that the redwood top was most likely carved too thin. You need to adjust the way you build to the wood. Don't blame the wood.
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  20. #17

    Default Re: Redwood Tops????

    I forgot to mention that redwood is my favorite tonewood for mandolins. Once I learned how to use it anyway....

  21. #18

    Default Re: Redwood Tops????

    Now I build my redwood instruments with tops 50%-70% thicker than a spruce top (but about the same mass).
    Marty
    How did you arrive at 50 to 70 percent stiffer?

  22. #19

    Default Re: Redwood Tops????

    Quote Originally Posted by CarlM View Post
    Marty
    How did you arrive at 50 to 70 percent stiffer?
    By building those two that failed. :-) Before that, I had asked a bunch of builders how I should carve a redwood top. I got a uniform "a little thicker" from the builders I talked to, all of which had built successful redwood mandolins before.
    To me "a little thicker" meant 10-20% at most, but I didn't have a sense of what the tap tones, flexibility, mass, and deflection should be like to know I was off track at that point. Those guys did, so from their perspective, they had given me an unambiguous answer since they had the experience to know what a good-sounding mandolin top should act like and I didn't.

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    Registered User j. condino's Avatar
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    Default Re: Redwood Tops????

    I've lived in redwood country and either built solo or had a hand in building approx. 50 instruments with redwood and red cedar tops, including extensive experience with the Lucky Strike tree and the Carters back in the day.

    For what I am looking for in a performance instrument, redwood has almost immediate break in and a sweet voice, especially under soft bedroom conditions with light strings. Under demanding and performance conditions, it seriously lacks headroom and breaks up at around 60% of what red spruce does. That's a deal breaker, especially when combined with how fragile it is and likelihood of splitting and fractures.

    The one exception was the best boards from the lucky strike tree- those were almost like rust colored red spruce. Back in the day you could almost get a truckload of it for next to nothing, especially if you drove down to visit the Carters and were willing to put in a day or two of labor helping out. Most of what I see advertised as the Lucky Strike Tree is just generic redwood and has none of those characteristics.

    Spend some time in a redwood forest; you'll realize that the ultimate redwood experience is taking a nice nap under the canopy on a sunny afternoon......

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    Default Re: Redwood Tops????

    I was hoping for a little more from this thread.
    There is not enough information here, so I'm left with my imagination...
    It sounded like an oval hole. It sounded like the top failed between the sound-hole and the neck block.???
    I have never made a mandola, but I've built a handful of mandolins and guitars with redwood - all arch-tops and mostly full profile to have the fingerboard directly on the top. Siminoff oval hole mandolin plans show massive wood at the front of the top. I tried to be true to that notion.
    So it sounds like it was 'too thin' and failed under load and time.
    If it was too thin and it did fail between the sound-hole and the neck block is it just wishful thinking/wasteful working to consider a repair? Crack repairs and adding brace wood - much like a guitar top has braces between the neck block and sound hole?
    Is there more to learn here?

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    Default Re: Redwood Tops????

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Oliver View Post
    I was hoping for a little more from this thread.
    There is not enough information here, so I'm left with my imagination...
    It sounded like an oval hole. It sounded like the top failed between the sound-hole and the neck block.???
    I have never made a mandola, but I've built a handful of mandolins and guitars with redwood - all arch-tops and mostly full profile to have the fingerboard directly on the top. Siminoff oval hole mandolin plans show massive wood at the front of the top. I tried to be true to that notion.
    So it sounds like it was 'too thin' and failed under load and time.
    If it was too thin and it did fail between the sound-hole and the neck block is it just wishful thinking/wasteful working to consider a repair? Crack repairs and adding brace wood - much like a guitar top has braces between the neck block and sound hole?
    Is there more to learn here?
    I'm obviously not a builder, but a saddened owner having experienced this. Yes, an oval hole and failed from both sides of the hole to the neck block. Interesting question, but having seen the damage I cannot imagine a repair short of replacing the top.
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  28. #23
    I really look like that soliver's Avatar
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    Default Re: Redwood Tops????

    My Silverangel has a WRC top and sounds super!... Warm, dark and lovely!

    I was reading Graham McDonald's "The Mandolin Project" recently and he discusses the thickness of Cedar vs Spruce, but I cannot remember the detail ... I'll try to find it later.
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    Default Re: Redwood Tops????

    Another Silverangel redwood top owner here - the sound was "broken in" from the first day, and it's just gotten better. Really thick and chewy.

    I don't know about the thicknesses, but as Br1ck pointed out, the top (and back) archings are really pronounced, compared to what one normally sees with a spruce top. I'm not sure if that's to compensate for redwood's difference in stiffness, the sound Ken was chasing, or both, but going on two and a half years, the top is as stable as day one.

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    Default Re: Redwood Tops????

    Not to be a naysayer or anything, but I feel I must point out that tops ALWAYS seem stable. Until they’re not.
    Don

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