circa 1919 Gibson H1 Mandola questions

[Banjaxed]

I have a circa 1919 (based on the Mandolin archives, serial #: 53526) H1 that was passed on to me by my father. I remember as a boy visiting this in the attic and it's been in the same condition most of it's life, the pickguard deteriorated and a few tuning pegs deteriorated - case barely holding together. I recall him telling me a doctor had asked him to glue the back binding and after the repair he let him keep it.

Fast forward, I've relocated this from an attic in Ohio to California and (as a guitarist) getting the mandola bug (and now gassing for a mandolin). I replaced the tuning machines with StewMac's golden era tuning machines to make it playable (as you can see, I installed them upside down...I will fix).

I don't have a mirror to investigate the FON as yet but trying to determine it's year for certain and seeking any input from these great forum members. I've been scouring this site and others looking for other H1 examples. I have several other questions:

I currently have d'addarioJ76 strings on it and I'm afraid it might be stressing the top a bit. There is a slight depression on the bass side of the bridge but I believe that's been there as long as I can remember. Does the mandola like a lighter gauge string?

I want to replace the pickguard (it's decomposing and rattling) and have inquired with a few places sourced from this site. I'm not certain that the metal pickguard mount is original has anyone seen one like this before? I've been seeing the clamp style, Pat 1911 on a lot of other instruments of this age and it's leading me to believe my father may have fabricated this in the 50's. If this isn't original, any sources to obtain an authentic pickguard clamp?

Sources for a case that fits the H1 (under $200)?

Attaching pics for anybody that has some insight on this instrument. It's got great tone and very playable (based on my limited experience...). Incld. pic of case in case that might help verify age...

thanks!

[rcc56]

Loosen those strings right now. J-76's will tear an old Gibson to pieces.
I make my own mandola sets from single strings. 12-20w-32w-46w or 48w.
Your instrument was made somewhere between 1919 and 1922. The pickguard and bracket are not original.
An original cam style pickguard clamp is expensive. An alternative is to modify a violin chinrest clamp.
The deteriorating pickguard should be discarded. You can make a tracing of it before you throw it away, but the shape is not quite right.
There is a top brace behind the sound hole. Make sure that it is not loose.

[Banjaxed]

Thanks for the feedback! These strings were given to me by a friend of a prominent mandolin player and I thought he "knew". I had a bad feeling when I was stringing it up that it was just too much tension. I should have investigated first. I'll go with some lighter gauge for sure.

I'll review that thread I ran across regarding the violin chinrest clamp. I realize an original clamp would be expensive and that I've modified this instrument with different tuners, but I would like to retain as much of it's originality as possible. Would the original pickguard and clamp be like the attached A4 (for sale at the Mandolin store, boy would I like to have this...). Is the pin in the fretboard a part of the fretboard or the pickguard? Assuming the pickguard, but it looks kind of fused in there...

Out of curiosity, is there a way to get buttons replaced on tuning machines? I ask for this instrument as well as a 60's gibson 175 that had the buttons deteriorate and it would be great to put the originals back on.

I'll investigate the top brace - not hearing or feeling and loosness, knock on wood.

thanks again.

[rcc56]

Yes, the attachment mechanism on your A-4 picture is typical for the period.

A violin clamp can replace the cam clamp with no other modifications.

The pin[s] passes through a reinforcing strip laminated to the underside of the pickguard. Earlier Gibsons used nails cut to a workable length, later ones used steel pins.

Those top braces frequently loosen up. A loose one can contribute to top distortion. Sometimes when they are re-glued, much of the distortion goes away, sometimes not.

Tuner buttons can be replaced. Some of the replica buttons are pretty accurate looking, some not.

[Ray(T)]

The pickguard and arm on your A4 attachment look to be correct but that is a violin chinrest clamp not the original cam clamp which was used in the teens and twenties.

Personally, I don’t think the pin(s) are part of either the pickguard or the fretboard. My impression (from my’14 A) is that they are separate nails driven through the pickguard into the neck and then ground off.

[rcc56]

Ray is right, that is a chinrest type clamp in the A-4 picture. My mistake. I didn't zoom in on the picture, I was in a hurry.

But . . . depending on how early the A-4 was made, that clamp may indeed be original to the instrument. Gibson actually used a modified chinrest clamp on their earliest instruments with elevated pickguards. But within a year or two, they switched to the cam clamp that was used on most of the oval hole mandolins. The OP's mandola would have had the cam clamp.

I don't know of anyone who sells a reproduction cam clamp. Gilchrist makes them and uses them on their style 4 mandolins, but I don't know if they will sell the clamps individually.

The pickguard pins are driven through a hole drilled into the edge of the guard, which is doubled in thickness by the addition of a 3/8" wide reinforcing strip laminated to the underside of the guard. Usually the holes go all the way through the reinforcing strip, but not always.

By the way, if anyone happens to have one of the original Gibson-made early chinrest style clamps, I am looking for one. I had one drop off a mandolin on a gig some years back, and was not able to get back into the venue when I discovered it was missing. The originals had a rectangular foot brazed to the bottom clamp screw.

[A 4]

Loosen those strings right now. J-76's will tear an old Gibson to pieces.
I make my own mandola sets from single strings. 12-20w-32w-46w or 48w.

I had no idea about this. On my mandola, I figured the right strings were the ones that said "mandola" strings, so I used the J76s as well. D'addario also makes light mandola strings, but they are not as light as the custom set used by rcc56.

How do I tell if the top is stressed? This mandola has had significant work done on it, maybe they beefed up the top. It sounds great with the medium strings on it, but that's not worth damaging the mandola.

To the original poster: you don't *need* to replace the pickguard, unless you really want to have a pickguard for aesthetics, or unless you are a top touching sort of player. Also, I don't think anyone mentioned it above, but maybe the bridge is a replacement, too. I welcome correction, but shouldn't that mandola have a fixed bridge with a hole drilled in it for a pickguard mounting pin? THat's what I have seen for teens mandolins, at least, but mandolas could be different, and if it is as late as 1922, maybe adjustable bridges were standard?

[BradKlein]

Loosen those strings right now. J-76's will tear an old Gibson to pieces.

This has NOT been my experience - I don't claim to be the last word on H model Gibsons, but have examined a few. I think it's safe to say that many have handled D'Addario EJ76s (or similar) for a century without damage.

The Gibson A models are not lightly built instruments, (like, for example Martin cant top mandolins) I've seem some with a smooth arch, some that show a complicated profile but remain stable over many years, and I've seen some tops that have failed. It's always worth knowing if the brace or braces under the top of an older instrument remain firmly attached.

I always try lighter strings, and favor them on vintage instruments if I like the sound of them. So I'd try both EJ72 and EJ74 and see if I prefer one over the other.

It's hard to tell the state of the top of an instrument from photos, but your mandola does seem to show some sinkage on the bass side that should be looked at by a luthier you respect. When tops are actively failing, it's a fairly major job to 'save' them, but a first step is to check the brace and put on light strings and see how stable things are over a couple years.

Here's the info on the strings in question - I suspect they are the most popular sets for Gibson H models available today. Take a look at the tension statistics. Interesting!

[Banjaxed]

Thanks for all the feedback on my original post. I went to a nearby music store in Petaluma, Ca that actually had 3 A4s between 1919-23, I believe. I was able to get a close look at this clamp, pickguards etc. (I was also able to play about every model eastman mandolin as well as a 20s gibsons f2 and realized I like oval holed f-style mandolins- and vintage tone!)

A 4 had a good eye - I don't believe that, at least the base, of my bridge is original - it doesn't have the pat. number on it. I've seen several pics and these in person that had adjustable bridges.

rcc56, is correct that these clamps are hard to come by. I have a few inquiries out there, see a ghilcrest copy on ebay that looks identical and might have a lead on one from a store going out of business in berkeley - if I find two, I'll pass the info along.

Brad I'll try the EJ72's. It is hard to find lighter guage strings. Has anyone tried John Pearse strings? He has a very light gauge 12-45

[Ray(T)]

For what it’s worth, I use Newtone on my Collings mandola - same gauge as d’Addario but easier/cheaper to source in the UK. They will put you together sets in any gauge you want the only drawback being that they are on this side of the pond.

[A 4]

I ... might have a lead on one from a store going out of business in berkeley - if I find two, I'll pass the info along.

If you find three, please let me know, too. I have one but it is worn in a way that means it doesn't clamp as well as I would like.

[pops1]

If you find three, please let me know, too. I have one but it is worn in a way that means it doesn't clamp as well as I would like.

Put a piece of leather, or felt under the foot of the clamp. The original pad is most likely compressed, if it is there at all. I use a piece of soft deer skin and the clamp works as it should and the looseness is gone.

[A 4]

Put a piece of leather, or felt under the foot of the clamp. The original pad is most likely compressed, if it is there at all. I use a piece of soft deer skin and the clamp works as it should and the looseness is gone.

That's a good tip, that I might not have thought of, but in my case the cam part is a little bent, so it doesn't register against the little stud, because that is a little worn.

Thanks.

[MarkELynch]

The Gibson pickguard side clamps show up regularly on the auction sites and Reverb, just keep your eyes open. Steven Gilchrist used to list an exact replica on his website for $180 but I just checked and no longer see it.

Here is a great explanation by Paul Hostetter about how the clamp is supposed to work. Selecting the right hole for the brass spring is the first step before adding additional padding to the clamp faces. Examples on original instruments used a single layer of felt on each of the two surfaces.

http://www.lutherie.net/Gibson.mando...ard.clamp.html

[pops1]

That's a good tip, that I might not have thought of, but in my case the cam part is a little bent, so it doesn't register against the little stud, because that is a little worn.

Thanks.

I would try to carefully straighten it and see if you can make it work again. Even if you get another it will be better until you do.