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Thread: Learning different keys

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    Default Learning different keys

    I play banjo and have learned by ear, I can pretty much play a song just hearing it BUT as most banjo players, I use a capo. I can play most 3/4 waltz tunes without a capo in any key. I'm trying to learn mandolin and need to know how you learn to play in any key, do you learn licks and intros or memorize tunes in all the keys or? I mean if a song is in the key of G, you know exactly where to start? And how to play the melody. I can play some simple tunes in B and A but struggle playing in G , C etc. Do I need to just memorize a few tunes in all the keys or learn a song in several keys? I might try getting a tab book like masters of the mandolin? I guess what I really would like to know is how did you guys learn, memorizing everything?

    rb75 man

  2. #2
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Learning different keys

    Like everything else, it depends.

    For learning melodies, yea I just picked them up. "Remember" is the word I use instead of memorize. I learn them in the key I heard them.

    For chords and double stops, I use mostly closed positions that can be used in any key. So I have like a I chord, a IV chord and a V chord combination that moves anywhere up or across the neck.
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    Default Re: Learning different keys

    Get Brad Laird's "Mandolin Master Class" ebook and read about "triangular chord progressions."

    As I understand it (since I've been working through that part lately), once you know these few repeatable chord positions you can easily play the chords in any key, even when you don't necessarily know the actual names of those chords being played. You simply "find where the music is" and locate the I chord. The other chords triangulate off that in a few consistent ways.

    Once you locate a chord, then you've also located a triad (three of the seven tones) within that scale. And if you know major scale or pentatonic scale or arpeggio patterns well enough, the location of the 1 tone shows you where all the others would be in relation to it along the scale.

    So, bottom line: It's more about understanding the logic of patterns and memorizing patterns than memorizing actual named notes or keys.

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    Default Re: Learning different keys

    If you know a tune in G and want to go to A start 2 frets up.I know that sounds simplistic but a mandolin tuned in 5th is all about patterns, for instant a tune in A moved over one string, and played the exact same way will be in D. Learn to recognize the patterns and playing in any chord is not hard. What's hard is seeing the patterns, it took me years because I learned on my own and there was no mandolin cafe to ask.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Learning different keys

    Maybe I'm just older and have a hard time remembering but the pattern thing sounds the same on the banjo, I can move all over the neck and don't even have to know the specific notes or even most chords it's just a pattern and I know where to play in the key the song is in. I'll look into that some more, I figured a little of this out on the mandolin but maybe I need to just play more and try to find the patterns so to speak. I do know I can change keys just by playing the same tune or pattern by moving up or down a string and I get the moving up and down the fret board is a key change but I think when I'm in the first position and playing open string it's throwing me off when I move up, alot of the open strings are gone and I'm slow at finding those notes.

    rb75man

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    Registered User ABrown's Avatar
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    Default Re: Learning different keys

    I think something helpful that most beginning players should do is give equal importance to learning closed position scales as they do open position scales. If you spend all your time playing open major and pentatonic scales in first position it can be a struggle moving it up the neck. Playing common scales like G and D out of say the fifth position will teach you the common intervals between notes in every single scale at any position on the neck. Even learning the intervals on a simple pentatonic scale and then how to find any scale using the desired note as the base will start unlocking the neck, especially for someone who has experience playing other fretted instruments
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    === High Strung === gfury's Avatar
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    Default Re: Learning different keys

    Quote Originally Posted by ABrown View Post
    I think something helpful that most beginning players should do is give equal importance to learning closed position scales as they do open position scales. If you spend all your time playing open major and pentatonic scales in first position it can be a struggle moving it up the neck. Playing common scales like G and D out of say the fifth position will teach you the common intervals between notes in every single scale at any position on the neck. Even learning the intervals on a simple pentatonic scale and then how to find any scale using the desired note as the base will start unlocking the neck, especially for someone who has experience playing other fretted instruments
    This ^^^^

    Look at FFcP (Four-Finger Closed Position) www.mandolincafe.com/eschliman1.html

    Patterns that can be moved all over the fretboard.

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    Default Re: Learning different keys

    Quote Originally Posted by gfury View Post
    Look at FFcP (Four-Finger Closed Position) www.mandolincafe.com/eschliman1.html

    Patterns that can be moved all over the fretboard.
    YES! Hate repeating myself, but here's from several weeks ago on another thread ...

    ------------
    Even now that I can somewhat quickly figure what any note is, that's not the way many of us play.

    What I DID initially memorize (...on guitar...) are the notes at each fret marker up the neck, starting with only the E string(s). After a while, the notes on adjacent strings, a fourth/fifth above/below (mixing guitar & mando here) become apparent, and eventually the others fill themselves in.

    But actually PLAYING is a different thing. While a pianist has to memorize each white/black, sharp/flat for the keys they play in, we fretted folks are given a big break, especially on mandolin. All we really have to remember (when playing above open positions) is the location of the root note / root chord, and then follow the pattern of whatever tune you're playing. The singer needs to change key? Find the new root note, follow the same pattern. THAT is a big reason that the FFcP exercises are so often noted here, because they're so easily moveable.

    Six or eight years ago, when I thought I was getting decent on mandolin, I took a clinic with Barry Mitterhoff where he gave us some unnamed Mozart sheet music that initially floored me: in Bb and very broken 6/8 time. "Uhmm, okay the B note is flatted and, uhmm, I guess the E note also. Now where's the next one of those?" Barry lifted the fog by strongly hinting that, "Here's the root note, and here's the pattern (from FFcP) that your scale is on. Think more about which note from the pattern you're going to play, rather than whether that note is flatted or not ...", and it did fall together.
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    Registered User Simon DS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Learning different keys

    Try this Picklosers pdf on Marc Gunter’s most excellent website
    http://www.markgunter.net/lyrics/Pic...oublestops.pdf
    It helps you to see the repeating patterns from one scale to the next by making the first third and fifth notes the important ones.
    For example one pattern is that the fourth and third strings are the same notes as the second and first except they are one octave below in pitch and two frets up the neck. Good luck!

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    Registered User Mandobart's Avatar
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    Default Re: Learning different keys

    I came to mandolin from a violin/guitar background. IMO there just is no substitute for knowing the fingerboard - know the name of every note you play. Next, know your scales and circle of fifths. Key of C, every note is natural (no sharps or flats). Go up a fifth to G - now you have one sharp (F#). Go up another fifth to D. Now there are two sharps (F# and C#). Kelp going up to A. Guess what - 3 sharps (F#, C# and G#). Do you see the pattern? Next stop is E with 4 sharps (F#, C# , G# and D#). B is a favorite bluegrass key with 5 sharps! Not much use for open strings here with F#, C#, G#, D# and A#. Realistically you're going to play bluegrass in A, B, some in C, D and G. Of course there are more keys; minor keys, horn keys, etc. And modes which further complicate things. But if you know your major scales in those 5 keys and where the notes are on the fretboard you have the bulk of what you need. Most people do not bother with these basics.

  13. #11
    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Learning different keys

    As said earlier, it depends.

    There are keys, other keys, minor keys, other minor keys. So if you're playing a non chord intensive genre, like bluegrass or Irish music, the letter keys A, B, C, D and E will probably suffice for now. Typically, few songs have melody notes beyond the first position (exceptions all over the place of course), so learning the scale patterns in that position using open strings is probably fine for now although using closed scales is fine if you have sufficient reach in your left hand. How tunes start is a matter of hearing through the root, third of fifth of the root chord and starting there (but some start on the flat 7th! but not often), although many songs have pick up notes that walk to the first real melody note. That's a skill to practice but you probably can hear that from your banjo playing. Learn the chord tones for each key, (again, you probably know from the banjo), and you'll be in good shape. And as you learn them, you'll see the pattern of the relationships between them.

    It'll take a while, especially to play at song or singing speed. But you knew that

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    Registered User Pete Martin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Learning different keys

    There is no one "right" way to learn keys. Two possibilities are

    1) Learn one piece in all 12 keys
    2) Play EVERYTHING you know in one key for a period of time. When comfortable in that key, do the same in a new key until you've covered all 12.
    3) Something in between.


    I found #2 worked best for me.
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    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Learning different keys

    rb75 - I've played banjo for 56 years & i'm also an 'ear player'. When i came to mandolin, i knew that there was the ''No Capo.'' option as well as the option to use one if i thought i needed to - i decided that NO capo.was the only choice for me.

    I learned to play using my PC as a source of music,using CD's / MP3s/ & i/net radio,trying to pick out simple tunes note by note,all the time 'seeing' where the 'sounds' were on the fingerboard. Most of the tunes were in different key - that main ones A/B/C/D & G,& then there were the ones in Bb/E & F. I found out where the ''kick off'' notes were & worked it up from there,in every key. It takes time & some memorising skill - but you've been there on banjo & you can do the same thing on mandolin - don't think that you can't - ''Listen,work it out & repeat - a lot !''
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    Registered User Carl23's Avatar
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    Default Re: Learning different keys

    I work on scale and chord patterns, then worry about the notes on the G string. that has been giving me the context of the rest of the neck.

    Once I know what the 6th of the scale is on the middle finger on the second string, I can figure out the name of the note.

    Also, as a 'reader' playing scales and scale exercises are a big help. Makes reading/learning new tunes much easier.

    but whatever works for you works. doesn't hurt to try a few things as you go.

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    Default Re: Learning different keys

    Yeah ….. Working different keys on known melodies is a great way to learn the fretboard. Learning melodies without using open strings, called playing in closed positions, allows movement across keys using the same fingerings in a different fretboard position. It's all there when you look for it. Enjoy the process. R/
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  18. #16

    Default Re: Learning different keys

    Do you play old-time music? If so, tunes tend to fit on certain keys better than others. That makes it easier to figure out what key to play it in. If you find yourself having to play a lot of notes out of 1st position on the E string, you should try a fifth down. If it's too weird to play, try another fifth down. Other tunes, like tunes you can play on just two strings, you can play on any two strings so you can get confused or have arguments with people over what key it's supposed to be in.

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    Registered Plec Offender Mickey King's Avatar
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    Default Re: Learning different keys

    https://youtu.be/Xl6tsd0CFlw

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