Old versus New: Blind Taste Test

[timacn]

Interesting experiment. Ever hear of anything similar being done with mandolins?

https://www.theguardian.com/music/20...t-stradivarius

[OneChordTrick]

A similar experiment was done with guitars and the eff3ct of different woods for the backs. https://asa.scitation.org/doi/10.1121/1.5084735

The conclusion was that there was no difference in perceived quality across different woods.

Think it comes down the overall quality of individual instruments rather than a “pedigree”.

[yankees1]

I would not be able to distinguish between the two ! I can't even tell the difference between two buck chuck wine and fifty dollar wine !

[Astro]

Yeah, you can't tell much about their age by listening to mandolins. You have to lick the finish to tell if they are old or new.

So next time you're in Carters, walk up to the case that has the Loars and vintage mandolins and just go down the row and lick them all a few times right behind the tail piece...ask the Carters to watch after you've tried it and you'll learn a lot...

I hope they have cc cameras in there !

[Jim Garber]

Hashed and re-hashed comparison. Nothing new to see here. There are excellent violins/mandolins/kazoos being made today that will compete with the old ones in a blind test. So it goes.

[timacn]

Hashed and rehashed? Sorry for the redundancy.

Please refer me to the scientific study done with concert level mandolinists under controlled conditions.
I'd be interested in reading it.

Hashed and re-hashed comparison. Nothing new to see here. There are excellent violins/mandolins/kazoos being made today that will compete with the old ones in a blind test. So it goes.

[Bob A]

Science and subjectivity: too many variables renders such tests invalid. Always fun reading, though.

[yankees1]

Here at the MIM ( Musical Instrument Museum ) in the Scottsdale/Phoenix there was an exhibit a couple of years ago where a real Stradivari was played along side modern violins and I could not tell any difference ! I eventually did choose the best sounding to my ear and it was made by a man from Michigan but I have forgotten his name , but he is still living and building violins ! If you are ever in this part of Arizona you should visit MIM ! Only place like it in the world ! Instruments from every country in the world !

[Mark Gunter]

Hashed and re-hashed yes, in that the violin blind, double-blind, etc. tests have been posted about and lengthily discussed here over the years, and with articles and papers cited that go into greater detail than that article from The Guardian. Not that your current post is not valid, and your question about mandolin tests, just may not be very exciting discussion for long-term members. To read more, do some searches here.

Science and subjectivity: too many variables renders such tests invalid.

I agree with that statement to an extent ... not necessarily that the results are not valid though. I'd say most scientific tests (and pretty near all subjective tests) probably yield results that are not complete in the sense that they could never be challenged.

In the current case, i.e., exposing the mythical nature of the belief that old instruments are prima facie better than modern ones, I'd say the results of these tests do help a great deal. Paying millions for a strad can be justified in other ways than that they are absolutely the best sounding and playing available instruments.

[timacn]

Thanks, Mark. I have read such comparisons before, scientific and otherwise, which focused on other instruments. I found the article interesting as the evaluators, if I recall correctly, were all classically trained violinists. My underlying assumption, for better or worse, was that their "ear" for instrument quality was much more sophisticated than my aging, dilettante perspective or the perspectives of other amateurs such as myself. I would still like to read one of the articles or discussions you reference regarding mandolins. (for the knowledge rather than the excitement)

Hashed and re-hashed yes, in that the violin blind, double-blind, etc. tests have been posted about and lengthily discussed here over the years, and with articles and papers cited that go into greater detail than that article from The Guardian. Not that your current post is not valid, and your question about mandolin tests, just may not be very exciting discussion for long-term members. To read more, do some searches here.



I agree with that statement to an extent ... not necessarily that the results are not valid though. I'd say most scientific tests (and pretty near all subjective tests) probably yield results that are not complete in the sense that they could never be challenged.

In the current case, i.e., exposing the mythical nature of the belief that old instruments are prima facie better than modern ones, I'd say the results of these tests do help a great deal. Paying millions for a strad can be justified in other ways than that they are absolutely the best sounding and playing available instruments.

[Jim Garber]

Yankees1: you confuse me. Your info says central Illinois yet you say you are in Phoenix? I love the MIM, probably one of the few things I like about Phoenix besides visiting my sister and her family. Great museum!

[Jim Garber]

Hashed and rehashed? Sorry for the redundancy.

This forum (and many others like this one) are the Department of Redundancy Department. Then, again, it is always welcome to disuss these topics.

[Charles E.]

Hashed and re-hashed comparison. Nothing new to see here. There are excellent violins/mandolins/kazoos being made today that will compete with the old ones in a blind test. So it goes.

Sorry Jim, but it is clear to anyone with a tin ear that an antique, metal bodied Kazoo has a far superior sound then the plastic junk being produced today. No classically trained Kazoo player would ever use a plastic one in a section.

[peterleyenaar]

2012 Double blind test Stradivarius versus modern violins

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHXOPjI9l0I

[spanjo]

Here is my rule of thumb. Please see the posting guidelines. This is a family friendly forum

[Charles E.]

You might want to read the posting guide lines.

[Jim Garber]

Sorry Jim, but it is clear to anyone with a tin ear that an antique, metal bodied Kazoo has a far superior sound then the plastic junk being produced today. No classically trained Kazoo player would ever use a plastic one in a section.

No doubt you are aware of the series of blind tests conducted in 2008 at the University of Omsk. This included a rare molybdenum kazoo created in Cremona by A. Stradivari's cousin Redondo as well as some of the finest modern examples of metal (usually food-grade-titanium) and space-age plastic, including ones made of Meldin, the same plastic that we know is the miracle substance that Blue Chip picks are made of. Suffice it to say, even the professional kazooists of the Omsk National Orchestra, including the concert master himself, chose the modern instruments over the 400 year old examples. So there! It just goes to show you.

[yankees1]

Yankees1: you confuse me. Your info says central Illinois yet you say you are in Phoenix? I love the MIM, probably one of the few things I like about Phoenix besides visiting my sister and her family. Great museum!

. I spend the winter in Fountain Hills, just West of Scottsdale !

[Charles E.]

Jim,

Touche!

[Jim Garber]

. I spend the winter in Fountain Hills, just West of Scottsdale !

If I ever get out there in the winter months we should meet at MIM and lay some mandolin. So far my two trips were for family celebrations both in the summer months. Ugh!

[Louise NM]

Yankees1, the Michigan luthier was probably David Burgess.

[spanjo]

You might want to read the posting guide lines.

Thank Charles.

My apologies if I offended anyone on this forum. My post was a bit over the top for this forum and poor judgement on my part.

[John Lloyd]

I eventually did choose the best sounding to my ear and it was made by a man from Michigan but I have forgotten his name , but he is still living and building violins !

I'm gonna take a wild guess that it was either Gregg Alf, David Burgess, or Joseph Curtin.

[HoGo]

I'm gonna take a wild guess that it was either Gregg Alf, David Burgess, or Joseph Curtin.

I've read about that experiment many times on violin sites and J.Curtin was involved in it but I'm not sure they revealed the provenance of the violins used for experiment. I guess he wouldn't use one of his own violins just because he was involved...

[John Lloyd]

I know Joe Curtin was involved in an experiment or two in Europe. I don't know whether he had anything to do with the demonstration in Arizona alluded to by yankees1.

David Burgess has racked up such a ridiculous number of awards at VSA conventions that I automatically suspect his involvement in anything involving an astonishing accomplishment by a Michigan luthier.