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Thread: What's the ideal scale length and string choice for octave?

  1. #1
    Laps, Banjos, & Mandos rudy44's Avatar
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    Default What's the ideal scale length and string choice for octave?

    I've done a couple of octave conversions, and this is my favorite, using a Kay arch top body and a Taylor GS MIni neck (23-1/2" scale length) using .011", .022", .034"w, and .044"w strings.

    I do love it, but the reach is a little long for some of the intervals I like to use. I'm curious what other folks think of as ideal for scale length and their string choices. I think I'd like a 21" or 22" a bit better, but what do YOU think, and why?

    My current octave:

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    rudy44

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    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's the ideal scale length and string choice for octave?

    Well, we could start with how tall are you, what's your hand size and finger stretch, how old are you, and what kind of music do you play?


    Too many variables here to say what's good for anyone but you (or me). Personally, I'm 6'2" tall, male, with corresponding hand/finger size, and I'm getting into my mid-60's now without arthritis or other ailments, but my hands don't stretch like they used to. I play almost exclusively Irish/Scottish and related melody on my OM, no backup. My OM is a Weber with a 22" scale.

    With all that specified, I find it easy to play slower tunes like metered airs, marches, and "slow reels" on my OM, using pretty much standard mandolin fingering with a slide up to the high B note on the E strings in a tune. I leave the fast reels and jigs to my mandolin, where the shorter scale means I can play faster with ease.

    If I *only* played an OM and not mandolin or anything else, and wanted to play all that repertoire on it, I might go for a 20" scale to make it easier on my hands. But I would miss the sustain of the longer scale. For me, an OM is all about the sustain, so I select slower repertoire to play on it where I can milk the sustain. Maybe if I only played OM and nothing else, I would just practice harder to get the speed up on a 22" scale.

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    Default Re: What's the ideal scale length and string choice for octave?

    I like a 20 inch scale for ease of play. A bit longer actually. Most 20 inch scale instruments are actually 20 point something. I use D’Addario Light Mandola J72 String set and tone and sustain are great. J80 and other “regular” octave sets are way to light for that scale length. The key is matching the gauges to the scale length to get a normalized range of tension. For me the J72 set is an easy and quick way of getting what I want. Even more ideally, I might buy single strings to teak the tensions and make up a custom set but the J72s are pretty good as is. .014-.023-.034-049.
    Don

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  4. #4
    Laps, Banjos, & Mandos rudy44's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's the ideal scale length and string choice for octave?

    Thanks for the replies so far, that's exactly the kind of information I'm looking for.

    I'm 65 years old, 5'9" with big paws. I've been playing guitar, electric and upright bass, banjo, mandolin, octave mandolin, and a few other things for about 55 years. I gravitate toward self-penned tunes but I also associate myself with Cajun / zydeco, Old Time, and alternative county and general acoustic music.

    Here's the Kay octave with one of my own tunes being done:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXlbFMIsDgA

    Here's another one of my tunes done on a "low-tuned mandolin" I built:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydA7JgMHlQ4&t=13s

    Keep them cards and letters coming! I really appreciate your time and effort.
    rudy44

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's the ideal scale length and string choice for octave?

    Just curious... did you have to buy a GS-Mini in order to get the neck or is there a source for necks only?

    Quote Originally Posted by rudy44 View Post
    Here's the Kay octave with one of my own tunes being done:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXlbFMIsDgA
    Wow, that is like "chicken-picking" on an OM! Nice playing. I can see why you might want a shorter scale though.

    Here is the video embedded:

    Jim

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  8. #6
    Laps, Banjos, & Mandos rudy44's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's the ideal scale length and string choice for octave?

    Hi Jim, Thanks for the kind words.

    I'm not sure it's all that common, but I just happened to check Reverb.com and there was a GS Mini neck someone had listed for $50. I couldn't build a neck for that, so it seemed like a good opportunity to use the Kay body for an octave mando.

    I broke the neck off my dad's Kay when I was something like 13 years old and I've been carrying the body around all these years never having a specific use for it. It now serves as a nice reminder of my dad when I play it.

    I thought the video might be the best way to convey what I like to do with mando family instruments.
    rudy44

  9. #7

    Default Re: What's the ideal scale length and string choice for octave?

    Short answer: Longer scale tends to sound better. Shorter scale is easier to play. 22 inches is a good compromise.

    Long answer: It really depends.
    Here's what I've owned:
    20 inch Weber archtop octave
    21 inch Petersen flat top octave
    22.25 Guitar bodied Bayard
    23.5 Fylde Cittern
    23.5 Gernandt flat top Octave
    25.5 Crump (bouzouki)

    I really love CBOMS. I use em for any musical style I happen to be playing. I prefer GDAD. I still own the Bayard, the Gernandt, and the Crump and unless the tax man is harsh I hope to keep all 3.

    I've found nut width and neck shape to effect ease of play as much as scale length. I loved the big sound of the Fylde but its massive nut width and baseball bat neck wasn't for me. The Gernandt is the same scale but (for me) much easier to play. I was concerned about buying another 23.5 cbom but when I received the Gernandt I was so surprised at the ease of play that I actually had to measure the scale. Both 23.5 but they sure played different. Both sounded great but different.

    How important is playing in position to you? I throw my hand about quite a bit. I might move up to hit the 7th fret or even the 5th depending on the song. In general it seems folks that really like to stay in position like shorter scale instruments.

    In general, you can get away with lighter strings with a longer scale. For me lighter strings are a bit easier to play but it's not a huge factor. I look at D'addario J80s (12-46) as default for a 22 inch scale. As you move up you can lower gauge and still get a nice sound. As you move to a shorter scale you really have to gauge up. At 20 inches I was using 14-49. At 23.5 I use 12-44. At 25.5 I use 11.5-40. That can affect playability as well.

    Sorry for the long answer!
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  10. #8
    Laps, Banjos, & Mandos rudy44's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's the ideal scale length and string choice for octave?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Leyda View Post
    Short answer: Longer scale tends to sound better. Shorter scale is easier to play. 22 inches is a good compromise.

    Long answer: It really depends.
    Here's what I've owned:
    20 inch Weber archtop octave
    21 inch Petersen flat top octave
    22.25 Guitar bodied Bayard
    23.5 Fylde Cittern
    23.5 Gernandt flat top Octave
    25.5 Crump (bouzouki)

    I really love CBOMS. I use em for any musical style I happen to be playing. I prefer GDAD. I still own the Bayard, the Gernandt, and the Crump and unless the tax man is harsh I hope to keep all 3.

    I've found nut width and neck shape to effect ease of play as much as scale length. I loved the big sound of the Fylde but its massive nut width and baseball bat neck wasn't for me. The Gernandt is the same scale but (for me) much easier to play. I was concerned about buying another 23.5 cbom but when I received the Gernandt I was so surprised at the ease of play that I actually had to measure the scale. Both 23.5 but they sure played different. Both sounded great but different.

    How important is playing in position to you? I throw my hand about quite a bit. I might move up to hit the 7th fret or even the 5th depending on the song. In general it seems folks that really like to stay in position like shorter scale instruments.

    In general, you can get away with lighter strings with a longer scale. For me lighter strings are a bit easier to play but it's not a huge factor. I look at D'addario J80s (12-46) as default for a 22 inch scale. As you move up you can lower gauge and still get a nice sound. As you move to a shorter scale you really have to gauge up. At 20 inches I was using 14-49. At 23.5 I use 12-44. At 25.5 I use 11.5-40. That can affect playability as well.

    Sorry for the long answer!
    I appreciate the long answer!!!

    I'm just working on an evaluation of what others prefer and their reasoning. I'm comfortable with up the neck stuff, but I do tend to stay lower due to my preferance for having at least some open strings going while working around a melodic structure.

    Thanks to all so far, and anyone else is encouraged to jump in if they have an opinion.

    I like the 23-1/2" octave, but I'm thinking something in the 21" or 22" scale might be better for the inter-note stretches that I use. My playing buddy has a Weber octar which sounds great but just is too much of a stretch for me on a double course instrument.

    I'm primarily a guitar player, so the longer intervals aren't normally a problem, but the 5th intervals work out as longer stretches for double-stopped pairs. It's just the physical differance between instruments tuned in 4ths and 5ths.
    rudy44

  11. #9

    Default Re: What's the ideal scale length and string choice for octave?

    I have a 22 3/4" Crump OM. I'd say 22" is a good target. I can make it work on melodies, though as stated by foldedpath, it works well with slower tunes. I don't have large hands, so certain double stops are hard, like the G/B. As it stands, there are certain tunes I won't play on the OM, and it is just as easy to grab the mando.

    The sustain is key on this instrument, thus I think longer scale. I currently have it strung with 14 22 34 45, custom set of D'addarrio flatwound chrome singles. I have used the emando.com medium set here: http://www.emando.com/shop/strings8va.htm which I based the single set on. I found the 13 E string to be a bit weak, so I tried a 14. I think the 24 on the A string is just a bit too high of tension, so just today I went down to 22. With this change, I may go back down to a 13 E string to see if I can finally settle on a set.
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  12. #10
    Registered User Joe Dodson's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's the ideal scale length and string choice for octave?

    Quote Originally Posted by rudy44 View Post
    Here's another one of my tunes done on a "low-tuned mandolin" I built:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydA7JgMHlQ4&t=13s

    Keep them cards and letters coming! I really appreciate your time and effort.
    Hey, that was great. Thanks for sharing!

  13. #11
    Registered User Mandobart's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's the ideal scale length and string choice for octave?

    I have a 21.5" OM I tune G, D, A, E with octave pairs on the G, D and A courses. I find it pretty easy to navigate melody picking and chords (fairly large hands, glove size 11). I also have a 26" 10 string 'cello tuned C-G-D-A-E with octave pairs on the C, G and D. Picking melodies requires frequent position shifts. Your ideal size will depend mostly on your hand/finger geometry and dexterity.

    Strings - I like phosphor bronze. I love that most of my mando family instruments have Allen tailpieces that take loop or ball end strings. I can use any string made for mandolin, OM, mandocello, banjo, guitar......

  14. #12
    F5G & MD305 Astro's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's the ideal scale length and string choice for octave?

    I can't provide much of a comparative analysis because I have only one OM. Its the 21.5 scale length Pono flat top guitar shaped mahogany version. Rudy, looking at your excellent videos I would think this OM would be right up your alley. Anyway I think it has a good sustain so I dont feel like I need a longer scale. It does challenge me in that many of my usual runs/posistions are too much of a stretch but I am slowly learning ways around that.

    I have not found the perfect string sizes for it. I thickened up a tad over what it came with because the strings felt sloppy and buzzed with the lighter ones it came with.

    It came with D'addario EJ80 12-46. I bumped up to 0.48 and 0.34 and its better but not sure its perfect. This instrument can only use the ball end strings.
    No matter where I go, there I am...Unless I'm running a little late.

  15. #13
    Laps, Banjos, & Mandos rudy44's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's the ideal scale length and string choice for octave?

    Thanks to all for the replies so far. I'm still mulling over the thoughts and ideas for a build that I'll do this summer. I'm not sure if I'll end up doing a smaller archtop guitar style octave or a F style. I love the Kay-bodied octave, but there's something so cool about the feel of a Florentine with "F" holes, as my mandolin has.

    I'm leaning toward 22" scale length, and when I capo my octave (23-1/2" scale length) at the first fret that gets me a close approximation and it feels pretty good at that length.

    With a 22" scale length I'm not settled on string guage. I'd like to be able to use the J80 or J72 sets because it's just a bit easier to grab a set of strings that way. I've always had the bulk strings to use, but it's easier to keep them fresher if the sets are packaged already. Musician's Friend quit selling the 12 packs of bulk phosphor bronze strings which were so economical to use.

    I can make the tailpiece to use either loop or ball ends, so that's not a problem.

    I might end up doing a dola first, since I have a brand new set of Shaller F style tuners and a new Weber tailpiece sitting in the shop unused. It would be a shame to not use 'em and my buddy who plays mando family instruments loves his dola and ends up playing it much more than his Collings mando or Weber Octar. I have everything else, but not a true dola in the current stable.
    rudy44

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