Peterson Cittern/OM - Capo basic questions

[Adair]

Hello,

I am very weak on music theory. I've been playing sessions for years with a mandolin, picking melodies. I've had this Petersen OM/Cittern (10 strings). I tune it DADGD. I'm trying to learn Irish counter melody playing. It is a struggle for me, particulary trying to find a place to play socially.

I have a few basic questions because I am very weak on music theory and not a confident social musician.

In many of the Bouzouki videos I watch (since I can't find much of anything for 10 string shorter scale celtic instruments) The capo is used extensively. I understand that takes my"D" tuning and all the happy open, chimey strings and translates it nicely to Em on the second fret. I embarassingly don't know how to determine what key I am in at different capo positions. Andy Irvine plays often with the capo on the 5th fret. What key is that?

I am working on playing this jig set:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gA2I...wWMFvQti99r8EG

I think the tunes are Behind the Haystack and Tripping up the stairs. I played these at a session last night and people just stared at me until my fingers froze. Can someone tell me what key these tunes are in? What informs his choice of capo position? What capo positions are best suited for melody and counter melody playing in various keys for Irish tunes?

I had worked so hard on these tunes, and it just paralized me to think that I had learned everything in the wrong keys. Every celtic musician has stressed that I learn by ear and years ago I set the sheet music aside and have tried to learn from listening. Now I think I've just lost my grasp on notation, particularly after switching to an instrument with a slightly different tuning.

Humbly,
Adair

[DougC]

Adair you have opened up a number of questions all at once.

You may know that Irish music is not just Major and Minor. Mixolydian, and Dorian are modes that demand different chords and you'll just have to recognize their sound and learn the usual chords that go with the modes.

If you already know the tune on mandolin. Learn what mode it is in. And find the chords that the tune requires.

Then there is the problem of using a capo. You can't do this step unless you know how the chords work on the tune. And that comes from knowing your chords on mandolin.

I think you know some of this so you are right in asking about 'theory'. If you have an open D string on your instrument then knowing the intervals or half steps becomes important. E is two half steps or two frets higher. (Same is true for a D chord becoming an E chord; two frets up.) Do it with a capo, or you fingers and work it out.

A capo on the 5th fret would turn a G into a D. G-A-B-C-D = five notes higher.

I would not use the capo yet. And your DADGD should sound good with tunes in D major, D mix and even E dorian.

You are not alone however. Mandolin Cafe has a Song of the Week club that works on standard tunes like these. Check this link.

https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/g...925&do=discuss


The quick way to work on this problem is to record the session folks and practice chords with the recording.

You could play along with the video but they may not be in their standard key / mode.

Another fast way to learn this stuff is to take lessons, or even just meet someone who knows how to do these things. There is a lot to learn about memorizing chords for tunes, transposition with a capo and such. But you will find answers here. (Get good at searching mandolin cafe topics esp. Irish/Scottish forum. )

[Dagger Gordon]

" I've been playing sessions for years with a mandolin, picking melodies. "

Hi Adair,

I'm assuming that if you know how to play tunes on mandolin in a session and haven't had problems with that, you will most likely be aware that certain tunes are nearly always played in specific keys - for example Tripping Upstairs is (to my knowledge at any rate) played in the key of D but moves into B minor in the second half.

Now clearly if you put a capo on an instrument and play it in an unusual key, that is going to cause confusion at a session. I'm not saying that is necessarily what happened to you, but from what you describe, it maybe sounds like it.
It might well sound pretty good, but if it's not in the generally recognised key then it probably will not fit in a session.

Why don't you record yourself playing tunes which you know work fine at a session on your mandolin , using a phone or something, and then practise your cittern playing along with it. That might help you.

Using the capo is not complicated, but you need to understand the basic principle. For example if you play a D chord on an instrument without a capo it will obviously sound as a D chord. If you put a capo on the first fret then it will sound as a E flat chord. Move it up one more to the second fret and then it becomes an E chord , and so on.

You may well know this already, so please don't take offence if you do.

[Dr Funkenstein]

Hi Adair,

Watching the video, I think I understand what's happening. Andy's capo is at 5 and he's playing Tripping Up that Stairs in G major. That tune is usually played in sessions in D major, which is probably causing the confusion with the other musicians.

I'm more than happy to talk your ear off about music theory via email or Skype if you'd want to connect for lessons.

Cheers,

Jeff Ksiazek

[Adair]

This is all very helpful. I think the root of my dilemma is understanding why Andy would change the key. I mistakenly thought that it made for more fluid picking in the DADG tuning, assuming that he was picking the correct key in an alternate tuning. He is however picking it as a D tune just shifted up the neck. Maybe it just sounded right or maybe it provided something for the accompaniment.. I blame Zan McCloud for confusing me on this matter. Somehow my head is twisted by the difference in the value of a capo for accompaniment vs. melody.

Jeff Ksiazek, I'd love to pick your brain via email.

-Adair

[Dr Funkenstein]

I'd guess the capo choice in the video was just one of convenience based on the first tune -- if you already know Tripping Up the Stairs in fingerings for D major, you wouldn't have to relearn it in A major fingerings on capo 5. Since it's a performance, Lunny and Brady were likely well prepared in advance for the different key than the normal session version.

[Adair]

Ah yes, that makes sense. One thing I learned immediately is that my 23" scale length Cittern strung partly in octaves is not capo friendly. It takes a moment to adjust ten strings between a set of tunes.
-Adair