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Thread: Non Mandolin Jazz

  1. #1
    Registered User Carl23's Avatar
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    Default Non Mandolin Jazz

    I have this great book for Vibes that I am using for approaching jazz

    It has a list of recording recommendations for each chapter. So I am listening to a lot of jazz vibes. (not a bad thing in my book) :-)

    It got me thinking... Since there is so little jazz mandolin, I was wondering what non-mandolin instruments you are listen to for learning jazz tunes?

    I am drawn to Vibes and some piano... Sax being a reasonably close 3rd.

    your thoughts?

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  3. #2
    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Vibes are pretty good. Red Norvo had a pretty fair guitar with him, Tal Farlow. Lots of jazz guitar players relate to mandolin players.
    Not all the clams are at the beach

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    Registered User Tom Wright's Avatar
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    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Trumpet, sax, guitar. Piano tends to be pretty thick in the chords but the riffs are worth trying to emulate. I picked some good piano styles from boogie-woogie and early rock and roll.

    John Scofield on guitar uses spare chords, sometimes only two pitches in counterpoint lines, easy to hear. Mike Stern is another modern guitar player that I like. Favorite sax is Michael Brecker. Of course listen to Miles and Louis Armstrong.

    But all jazz is a challenge without a C course. The lower range opens up guitar and sax range, and richer chords. Restring a spare mandolin CGDA and “speak low” (a good tune to learn btw).
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    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Yes, I like at least a mandola - which is what I used for any jazz mndln. But it was minimal compared with gtr and plectrum banjo. For me double-course strings aren't as good for jazz - unless it's for like Latin or Brazilian or such.. playing guitar and especially plct bnjo you get crisp, discrete note separation.

    As far as 'other instruments' - I often thought of piano with those - for the voicings I suppose.

    I went through a big Metheny phase early on...lots of Bill Evans-type stuff in those. And then with Gismonti, Towner, Abercrombie, John McLaughlin...lots of gtr stuff. But I listen to jazz 90% of the time, so ear is informed by everything.

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  7. #5
    Registered User Bob Visentin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Monk is always fun. Not to chordie. Really good heads and quirky solos. Whole tone scales! I quote Blue Monk often at jams when someone plays a 12 bar blues and it always gets a response. People who don't know Monk or even jazz recognize it but can't place it.

  8. #6

    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Visentin View Post
    Monk is always fun. Not to chordie. Really good heads and quirky solos. Whole tone scales! I quote Blue Monk often at jams when someone plays a 12 bar blues and it always gets a response. People who don't know Monk or even jazz recognize it but can't place it.
    I liked Monk on plc banjo! Those angular heads/melodies are perfect on PB - gives it an extra oomph and weirdness.

  9. #7
    String-Bending Heretic mandocrucian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    It's not the instrument, it's the player(s). Always. Also, it's the particular performances and/or tunes. It should be about the solos that really grab you regardless of the instrument, and regardless whether the player is amongst your faves. Sometimes that guy will really, really nail it on particular song or record when most of his other stuff leaves you cold. You retain the cream of the cream.

    I prefer players with a very VOCAL sound and articulation. Chet Baker on Trumpet, Johnny Hodges on alto sax. Cootie Williams (trumpet). I love to listen to Art Pepper (alto sax) play the blues. Paul Desmond (alto) Stan Getz, Coltrane & Rollins (tenor). Johnny Almond (flutes/saxes). I like James Moody and Yuself Lateef on flute. Herbie Mann is too preoccupied playing in the high register for my tastes. Rhasaan Roland Kirk can be very funky ("Making Love After Hours") but can be a bit too raw (on flute).

    I'm not too crazy about "jazz guitar" with that every-note-with-pickstroke "bubbly" articulation. Of course, Django was great, but that was a bit different. Wes Montgomery I liked. I prefer rock influenced solid-body players, because they bend strings, use much more slurring and frankly, tend to play lines and articulate more along the lines of a sax player. 25 years ago, my brother and I were playing tunes with Richard Thompson, including some Django stuff. RT played "Melodie au Crepescule" (on his strat) and I swear, it sounded as smooth and fluid as Johnny Hodges, but coming through a guitar amp. Terrific! Lee Ritenour always impressed me among the fusion bunch. I enjoy hearing Derek Trucks on jazz tunes, and Kofi Burbridge sounds great on flute.

    Frankly, for jazz, I'd opt for mandola or my electric 5-string (GDAEa, an octave below mandolin) over mandolin. But then, I'd rather hear it on flute more than on mandos.

    As other players on the Cafe have said....the answers are all on the records.

    Also my attitudes toward whatever grabs my ear, the original instrument is irrlelvant cuts across all genres - blues, C&W, celtic, Nordic, asian, R&B, etc. etc. The stuff I hear that I really like goes into the mental crockpot and may come back out on whatever instrument is in hand.

    Niles H

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  11. #8
    Registered User Carl23's Avatar
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    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Wright View Post
    Trumpet, sax, guitar. Piano tends to be pretty thick in the chords but the riffs are worth trying to emulate. I picked some good piano styles from boogie-woogie and early rock and roll.

    John Scofield on guitar uses spare chords, sometimes only two pitches in counterpoint lines, easy to hear. Mike Stern is another modern guitar player that I like. Favorite sax is Michael Brecker. Of course listen to Miles and Louis Armstrong.

    But all jazz is a challenge without a C course. The lower range opens up guitar and sax range, and richer chords. Restring a spare mandolin CGDA and “speak low” (a good tune to learn btw).
    LOVE SCHOFIELD! He's had some great drummers as well.

    Will check out "speak low" only one mando, so no restringing... :-)
    "The Loar" LM-520
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    and toys... lots and lots of toys.

    Hey... I have a blog here!
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  12. #9
    Registered User Carl23's Avatar
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    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Visentin View Post
    Monk is always fun. Not to chordie. Really good heads and quirky solos. Whole tone scales! I quote Blue Monk often at jams when someone plays a 12 bar blues and it always gets a response. People who don't know Monk or even jazz recognize it but can't place it.
    Blue Monk is a great tune. Love his playing as well, especially when he goes a bit "off the rails".
    "The Loar" LM-520
    Ludwig & Ludwig 8-370X Marimba
    Slingerland Modified Drumset
    Hand made profesional djembes from Guinea and Maili West Africa
    and toys... lots and lots of toys.

    Hey... I have a blog here!
    https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/blogs/53556
    Feel free to stop on by and let me know what you think!

  13. #10

    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by mandocrucian View Post

    I'd rather hear it on flute...
    ...especially when paired with bass clarinet! https://youtu.be/hef9I4EVb4s

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    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by mandocrucian View Post
    Also my attitudes toward whatever grabs my ear, the original instrument is irrlelvant cuts across all genres - blues, C&W, celtic, Nordic, asian, R&B, etc. etc. The stuff I hear that I really like goes into the mental crockpot and may come back out on whatever instrument is in hand.

    Niles H
    So in the same boat! I'm trying to learn the "the tradition" right now. Once I'm more familiar with what is expected I'd like to bring in eastern European, Klezmer, West African Cora, Mid eastern oud, and 20th century atonal... Like you say, anything that catches my ear.

    My problem right now is that I'm not really playing "jazz" in the sense of coming from a tradition. I'm not saying that you have to do it that way, just the way I want to do it.

    One of the coolest 'odd' instruments I've heard in Jazz has been a bassoon! happens to be on a manouche jazz tune. Rippin solo!

    :-)

    C
    "The Loar" LM-520
    Ludwig & Ludwig 8-370X Marimba
    Slingerland Modified Drumset
    Hand made profesional djembes from Guinea and Maili West Africa
    and toys... lots and lots of toys.

    Hey... I have a blog here!
    https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/blogs/53556
    Feel free to stop on by and let me know what you think!

  15. #12

    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl23 View Post

    One of the coolest 'odd' instruments I've heard in Jazz has been a bassoon! happens to be on a manouche jazz tune. Rippin solo!
    James Jacson held that chair for sun ra. I love a dark sound too - (why I got into bass cl, oud, etc..)

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    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    I'm in the somewhat non-piano minority. Yeah, I do love good pianists and piano solos, but when I hear a piano trio in jazz, I still wonder when the lead instrument is going to enter! Sorry!

    I prefer trumpet, sax, clarinet, trombone and other instruments that are primarily single line winds as the ideals of jazz - these are the MAIN jazz instruments in terms of phrasing.

    The piano is wonderful...I learned a lot of jazz theory form pianist Ellis Marsalis!

    Piano and guitar are both melodic and rhythmic/chordal - as is mandolin. But remember the most important innovators in jazz have largely been sax and trumpet players.

    Even many of the piano jazz innovations were just adapting horn stuff to piano. Earl Hines was considered one of the best jazz pianists...and his style was called "trumpet style" piano. Bud Powell largely played single note lines a la Parker and Gillespie.

    I love jazz piano, but I want to present a few alternative POV's for aspiring mandolinists.

    I think more like a single-note instrument on mandolin than a chordal instrument, like a violin - yes we can play chords but we really excel at melodic phrasing.

    And I really respect the chordal jazz mandolin stylists.

  17. #14
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl23 View Post
    Once I'm more familiar with what is expected I'd like to bring in eastern European, Klezmer, West African Cora, Mid eastern oud, and 20th century atonal... Like you say, anything that catches my ear.

    My problem right now is that I'm not really playing "jazz" in the sense of coming from a tradition.

    C
    I love Klez, oud music, 20th cent classical, etc. - but if you try to play jazz without understanding the over 100 years of tradition, it ain't real jazz. It's another fake-o "fusion". Jazz can absorb all sorts of music, but it has to in terms of jazz.

    Jazz is not just making up anything...it does have a tradition, over 100 years in New Orleans.

    There's a reason.

  18. #15

    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    ...when I hear a piano trio in jazz, I still wonder when the lead instrument is going to enter! Sorry!
    I hear that, but it dpends who you listen to. Bud, Monk, Fatha, Art, Jaki Byard, Andrew Hill...just didn't need a horn (but of course, it's the icing on the cake).

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    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    I love Klez, oud music, 20th cent classical, etc. - but if you try to play jazz without understanding the over 100 years of tradition...
    Definitely. If youre going to be a jazz player, stick with the instrument you play best - no matter what it is. Incorporate those styles on that instrument.

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    Registered User Pete Martin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    I find piano phrasing very similar to mandolin, multiple strings picked. Guitar also phrases similar due to being a fretted string and a pick. Horns are great for lines, but our square attacked notes are VERY hard to phrase like a horn.

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    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Vibes have a limited sustain that reminds me of the mandolin, so I think they are worthy of study. Try this one from a Rosenberg Trio album that features vibes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4M_02mSk88I

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    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Aebersold's free book has a list of suggested players all instruments, page 7 http://jazzbooks.com/jazz/FQBK
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    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Violin ….. Joe Venuti, Stuff Smith, Stephane Grappelli, Sven Asmussen …..
    I love hanging out with mandolin nerds . . . . . Thanks peeps ...

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  29. #21
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    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by UsuallyPickin View Post
    Violin ….. Joe Venuti, Stuff Smith, Stephane Grappelli, Sven Asmussen …..
    And the new batch of Manouche jazz violinists...all offer great ideas easily adapted to the mandolin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Martin View Post
    I find piano phrasing very similar to mandolin, multiple strings picked. Guitar also phrases similar due to being a fretted string and a pick. Horns are great for lines, but our square attacked notes are VERY hard to phrase like a horn.

    Any players who you like, steal everything!!!!
    Yes, it is hard to not sound square on mandolin - but it's a lot of fun trying to phrase like a horn, with slurs and grace notes and other "tricks".

    I appreciate all the various comments about vibes and piano, too.

    One other personal comment - I find playing mandolin in swing style jazz to be "easier" than to make the mandolin a modern jazz instrument a la Trane.

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    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    I hear that, but it dpends who you listen to. Bud, Monk, Fatha, Art, Jaki Byard, Andrew Hill...just didn't need a horn (but of course, it's the icing on the cake).
    I really like the icing...Bird and Bud....Monk and Trane or Coleman...Fatha with Louis....et al.

  31. #23
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    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by gtani7 View Post
    Aebersold's free book has a list of suggested players all instruments, page 7 http://jazzbooks.com/jazz/FQBK
    Which also includes the scale syllabus.

    http://www.jazzbooks.com/mm5/downloa...e-syllabus.pdf

    Which brings up chord-tone or chord arpeggio style playing vs. the "modern" chord-scale theory issue.

    Aebersold's books and play-alongs are a fine way to learn much about jazz, but they fail to include how to play the older (and in my opinion, better ) way using chord arpeggios and chord tones as the basis for improv, not matching a chord and a scale.

    Of course after you know the traditional way, THEN using the chord-scale method can add greatly to your playing, but used alone it often leaves much to be desired.

    However jazz is now taught as if earlier styles and methods don't exist, and the chord-scale method is the one used by many if not most young players.

    BTW, all my teachers used the chord-arpeggio method as the basic way to play all styles of jazz.

    As for the FQBK handbook, it proves my point, in that there is little mention of chord arpeggios before you get all those scales, and the listening admits "Most of the recordings listed are from the 40’s, 50’s & 60’s Bebop era. This is due to the strong influence this particular
    period of music has had on our current "jazz” scene today. "

    Otherwise it's a fine collection of info on post-bebop style jazz.

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  33. #24
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    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Jethro Burns was asked a similar question way back in the the Mandolin World days. I think his answer was "I listen to everything. I like most of it."

    I kinda side with Niles...jazz is not the instrument but the players. I'd go one further, it's not the instrument, it's the notes.

    OK, enough controversy and opinion. Here's players and notes that I dig currently, and for all time:

    Piano
    Wynton Kelly and Erroll Garner
    Clarinet
    Buddy DeFranco
    Trumpet, Cornet
    Clifford Brown, Chet Baker, Bobby Hackett, Wild Bill Davison
    Alto
    Bird, SONNY STITT, Cannonball, JOHNNY HODGES
    Tenor
    Lester Young, Sonny Stitt, Harry Allen, Dexter Gordon, Michael Brecker, Stan Getz
    Bari
    Ernie Caceres, Gerry Mulligan
    Bone
    Jack Teagarden
    Bass
    Ray Brown, Paul Chambers
    Drums
    Jimmy Cobb, Philly Joe Jones, Jo Jones, Buddy Rich, Peter Erskine
    Plectrists
    Jim Hall, Wes, Joe, George, Pat, Howard,John Pisano
    Vibeyphone
    Red Norvo

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  35. #25
    Registered User Carl23's Avatar
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    Default Re: Non Mandolin Jazz

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    but if you try to play jazz without understanding the over 100 years of tradition, it ain't real jazz. It's another fake-o "fusion". Jazz can absorb all sorts of music, but it has to in terms of jazz.
    .
    Exactly what I'm doing! I was doing the other "quasi jazz fusion" thing for a bit, just to get my legs under me. A couple of months ago I decided it was time to dive into the history. I've always had trouble with the scales over chords thing, so I'm starting at the very beginning (straight 12 bar blues) and moving up from there.

    C
    "The Loar" LM-520
    Ludwig & Ludwig 8-370X Marimba
    Slingerland Modified Drumset
    Hand made profesional djembes from Guinea and Maili West Africa
    and toys... lots and lots of toys.

    Hey... I have a blog here!
    https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/blogs/53556
    Feel free to stop on by and let me know what you think!

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