Gibson F9 with sunken top

[dhergert]

You know, we're missing an important point, and possibly a great opportunity here...

To the OP or anyone else who has tried this... How did the mandolin sound with the sound post added?

(Edit: Whether the carbon rod was intended as a sound post or not, that is at least partially what it is functioning as. Perhaps an easy fix would be to put a longer one in place.)

Speaking as a double bass player, there's a world of experimentation possible with sound posts.

[Bernie Daniel]

You know, we're missing an important point, and possibly a great opportunity here...

To the OP or anyone else who has tried this... How did the mandolin sound with the sound post added?

Speaking as a double bass player, there's a world of experimentation possible with sound posts.

I think the "sound post" referred to in a earlier post was mis-named. It was not a sound post (like on a violin) but actually a supplementary carbon fiber tone bar that the OP says Big Joe glued in place in hopes of preventing the top collapse. Apparently it failed. It might be noted also that Big Joe has no recollection of ever making such a repair on the mandolin that is the subject of this string.

But so far - after 52 posts on this topic -- we have yet to see an image of this Gibson F-9 with the sunken top. Just out of curiosity I would like to see it.

The idea of a sound post on a mandolin has been tried before and also been discussed many times in the past. I think the consensus opinion is that they do not contribute the the tone and projection on a mandolin like they do on a violin.

In one case I know a sound post inserted in a mandolin resulted in a crack in the back board due to the pressure of the strings.

[dhergert]

Hmm, you may be right. The clarification was still a little unclear to me:

sorry about not being clear about the carbon rod, it is not a sound post, it is glued or attached along the top. I can just feel it using my little finger in the f hole. it is about 6 inches long.

After having experimented with sound posts in my bass, I'd actually be tempted to try one with a sunken top mandolin in this situation. On a bass, which typically has pretty huge tension on the top, there is often a thin sheet of cross-grain wood between the ends of the sound post and the top and back, to prevent cracking of either. I'd also consider something like that. But there is also a science to placing the sound post on viol family instruments that has a huge effect on tone. That requires experimentation and time, and on a mandolin at standard tuning, probably a lot of strings.

[Bernie Daniel]

Hmm, you may be right. The clarification was still a little unclear to me:



After having experimented with sound posts in my bass, I'd actually be tempted to try one with a sunken top mandolin in this situation. On a bass, which typically has pretty huge tension on the top, there is often a thin sheet of cross-grain wood between the ends of the sound post and the top and back, to prevent cracking of either. I'd also consider something like that. But there is also a science to placing the sound post on viol family instruments that has a huge effect on tone. That requires experimentation and time, and on a mandolin at standard tuning, probably a lot of strings.

Yes, I agree -- worth a shot it would seem especially if you do like you say make sure that you distribute the stress so that the "post" does not damage the top or back boards. Person would have nothing to lose to try?

On one of Jerry Rosa's repair videos he did just that approach. A customer presented a relatively inexpensive Pac-Rim mandolin that had serious top sag and was not worth the expense of fitting a new top. So Jerry put in a sound post (with a small wood plate on both ends to distribute the stress). It work in the sense the it prevented the top sag and the mandolin was again playable.

The mandolin wouldn't win any prizes as to tone or projection but then it was not that great too begin with! LOL.

[HoGo]

There are those CF adjustable violin soundposts... they have larger footprint and can be jacked up to lift the sunken arch if needed...

[unclelee]

Hi, this is Lee, it is my F9 that has the sunken top, I have been away for a while, I will get someone to post some pictures of my F9 in a day or two. I personally do not have the means to post or take pictures, I will get it done soon, thanks for all the response, lee

[unclelee]

I will post pictures soon, thanks lee

[j. condino]

There are those CF adjustable violin soundposts... they have larger footprint and can be jacked up to lift the sunken arch if needed...

Do you mean the Anima Nova? I've never used the violin one but the bass model is $400!

[HoGo]

Do you mean the Anima Nova? I've never used the violin one but the bass model is $400!

Yes, that's the name, perhaps there are other brands as well. I have no idea what violin or viola model costs... but the $400 is whole lot of dough for something that replaces ordinary round stick of spruce wood :-)

[unclelee]

[HoGo]

Ouch! That is BAD.
Are you certain the tonebar is still attached to top? The edges od f holes look thin but on the one I had they were chamfered from inside to look thinner than they really were.

[Bernie Daniel]

What happens to the sag when you release the string tension? Does it re-bound or remain sagged? I assume it does NOT rebound? I say this because it looks like the bridge base as been "fitted" to the sag contour?

[unclelee]

with tension removed to top stays the same, I have used J74s sense purchased

[Eric Oliver]

How long did it take to get to this level?
Has anyone looked to see if the wood tone bar and the carbon fiber bar are still attached?
How does/did it sound?

[unclelee]

everything seems to be intack and it sounds good except for the buzzing on the G-D strings. I have to keep the action high to be playable at all. app. how much is a new top and who would be the best luther to do it ?

[Bernie Daniel]

with tension removed to top stays the same, I have used J74s sense purchased

OK Thanks for that information and also thanks for the pics. With that information it is easier for others to try to assist you.

So basically what happened is the top sank on the bass side and over time it assumed that deformed shape - even with string pressure released?

I'll let others with more experience comment further but I wonder if a new top is your only option? Granted just going for a new top might (in the end) be the most "fool proof" way to fix it. But it would certainly be expensive?

Something to think about. Frank Ford for example as been successful at removing the back pf an instrument (much easier then the top) then applying damp and heat to the back side of the top to return the top board to its original shape and then re-bracing it. He did this approach with success on a mandocello, an instrument that has at least twice the string tension of a mandolin.

It would depend perhaps on actually measuring the graduations on the top board -- are they really too thin or did a tone bar come loose triggering the collapse?

Could reshaping the existing top be an option for you?

[HoGo]

OK Thanks for that information and also thanks for the pics. With that information it is easier for others to try to assist you.

So basically what happened is the top sank on the bass side and over time it assumed that deformed shape - even with string pressure released?

I'll let others with more experience comment further but I wonder if a new top is your only option? Granted just going for a new top might (in the end) be the most "fool proof" way to fix it. But it would certainly be expensive?

Something to think about. Frank Ford for example as been successful at removing the back pf an instrument (much easier then the top) then applying damp and heat to the back side of the top to return the top board to its original shape and then re-bracing it. He did this approach with success on a mandocello, an instrument that has at least twice the string tension of a mandolin.

It would depend perhaps on actually measuring the graduations on the top board -- are they really too thin or did a tone bar come loose triggering the collapse?

Could reshaping the existing top be an option for you?

I guess that reshaping (sandbagging) the top would be more costly than new top from reputable maker (imagine slow careful removal of back making plaster cast, adjusting it applying heat many times and stabilizing the top by adding wood and then putting it back together and touchup the messed finish - or refinish the whole mandolin...). Randy Wood has done few like this and would be one of the first choices for this but any good competent mandolin maker could make a new top for it. The satin brown tinted semitransparent F-9 finish is PITA for touch ups so perhaps full refinish or at least sides plus top would be required as well...

[j. condino]

Nobody I know who actually has the proper skills to do it correct would willingly take on this.

Option 1:

Accept that you bought a secondhand lemon, put it on ebay as is, cut your losses and stress level, and then buy yourself another (non F9!!!) mandolin....life is to short to overthink and overinvest in things like this....

Option 2:

[Bernie Daniel]

Nobody I know who actually has the proper skills to do it correct would willingly take on this.

Option 1:

Accept that you bought a secondhand lemon, put it on ebay as is, cut your losses and stress level, and then buy yourself another (non F9!!!) mandolin....life is to short to overthink and overinvest in things like this....

Option 2:

I don't understand why you think no one who knows what they are doing would take this on? The OP should at least try I think.

I think there are some on this forum who would do it but the question is could it be done at a cost of less the the price of another used F-9 (circa $2500 - 3500 depending on year and condition).

And to suggest that a Gibson F-9 is not a quality mandolin (the two bad ones that have been described notwithstanding) is just wrong -- IMO. The Gibson A-9/F-9 mandolins, and I've owned several over the years, are for the money hard to beat. Period. (again tha's my opinion but I believe many here would back me up of that I have no doubt).

Not to be confrontational but I think to recommend to someone that they burn or trash a mandolin that they probably sacrificed to purchase is insensitive.

The thought of trying to recoupe your losses on eBay might be worth a try but most likely is not likely to be a viable idea? The sellers fee is 10% and you have to add to that another 3+% loss for PayPal. The market eBay is no longer seller friendly for someone who does not have a business selling (e.g., eBay store) in volume and a business plan that permits actually making anything. You might luck out and have someone pay for the name but most likely you wouldn't?

Some who knows more than me have suggested that a new top is the only solution -- that might well be true. So if the owner accepts that opinion the first thing is to check out the actual options. Find those how could fix it and see how many on that list WOULD put on a new top and then see what they would charge. When you know that you at least have a starting point.

In one of my posts I suggested that there might be a way to save the top by coming at it through the back. This might or might not be an option (at least on experienced person says it might not end costing less in the end) you never know until you ask.

I think it would be a valid use of the "want" ads section of the Mandolin Cafe Classified section to post an ad entitled "Wanted: Repair of Gibson F-9 mandolin" Then in the ad describe what you need fixed and have pictures of the damage. You might find someone willing to fix it and you could negotiate the price of the repair?

[j. condino]

Hi Bernie,

For the skill and effort that it would take to properly make a new top for this instrument and do all of the rest of the work involved, every builder I know would be better off and much more interested in taking the same material and energy to finish the rest of the mandolin and put their own name on it.

Build an F5 yourself, and then come back to me trying to explain that re-topping this one is a simple repair that "you could negotiate the price...". Best case scenario, F5 builds are an incredible amount of energy and a futile business model.

I sell all kinds of old junk like this that I don't want on ebay and am always amazed how much $$$ I get for it; regardless of the fees involved, I always feel like I come out well.

I've burned up thousands of dollars worth of instruments and never once regretted it. Every time I wish I had done it sooner. Don't let your emotional attachment to material possessions get the best of you. Life is short, move on...

[dhergert]

Speaking respectfully to both of you, I can see both sides.

As someone with the same vintage 2nd hand F-9 that has been serving me well for 7 years, I can see value in the instrument itself...

That said, I'm not blind to the fact that these weren't Gibson's most polished instruments, especially since Adrian (HoGo) did such a marvelous job of rebuilding a pretty trashy F-9 and documenting it so well here.

And as I've mentioned earlier, I've definitely seen and drooled over some of the near-perfect small-shop F-style mandolins that are available, so I'm also not blind to that.

With that in mind, it doesn't cost much if anything to get quotes. If it were me, I'd definitely contact David Harvey himself at Gibson and see what he could offer and what it would cost. I would also seriously consider contacting a few smaller-shop prominent builders like Bruce Weber or Tom Ellis and others to see what a new top would cost. These are people who have been known to do this kind of work in the past. I'm assuming that they all would report that repairing the existing top is not practical, but if one of these prominent builders surprised me with suggesting that direction, I'd listen. I suspect that at least one or two of this kind of builder would be willing to respond with a quote.

With a few quotes in hand, there is enough real information to make a decision about repair vs replace... Resale value of a repaired F-9 wouldn't be my only consideration -- I'm sort of attached to mine and I could imagine being willing to pay more than the mandolin is worth to get it fixed. But I'm sure in a real situation there would be a repair price limit in making the decision.

And if I were to go with replace, I'd definitely be considering small-shop builders for the best value, again unless Gibson could offer a surprising deal worth considering.

One thing is for sure, if I were to go with replace, I would not even look at Ebay or CL to sell the sad F-9. I'd offer it up for sale at an appropriately low price here on Mandolin Cafe' as a project.

[HoGo]

I'd go the way this guy went:
https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...lin-Story-quot
Re-topped by Randy Wood will make resale value be perhaps even higher than standard F-9. I have no idea what it would cost... Were you in EU, some of the Czech mandolin makers could do it for VERY affordable price comparing to US...
Goldrush is a bit higher model but still F-9 fixed by RW (or other reputable luthier) would be perhaps more cost effective option than dumping it or selling as project...

[Bernie Daniel]

Hi Bernie,

For the skill and effort that it would take to properly make a new top for this instrument and do all of the rest of the work involved, every builder I know would be better off and much more interested in taking the same material and energy to finish the rest of the mandolin and put their own name on it.

Build an F5 yourself, and then come back to me trying to explain that re-topping this one is a simple repair that "you could negotiate the price...". Best case scenario, F5 builds are an incredible amount of energy and a futile business model.

I sell all kinds of old junk like this that I don't want on ebay and am always amazed how much $$$ I get for it; regardless of the fees involved, I always feel like I come out well.

I've burned up thousands of dollars worth of instruments and never once regretted it. Every time I wish I had done it sooner. Don't let your emotional attachment to material possessions get the best of you. Life is short, move on...

Fair enough. FYI I have built 6 mandolins (3 of them F-5s) and converted 6 arch top guitars to mandocellos as well as doing top repairs (removing the back) of 5 vintage instruments including two Gibsons - a mandolin and a mandocello. So, I'm not an experienced builder or repair person by any reasonable measure but I have done a lot of other sundry repairs over MANY years and so I'm not a complete novice.

One area where we'll have to agree to disagree is that a Gibson F-9 is "some kind of old junk".

I still recommend that the OP post a "want ad" on the Mandolin Cafe for his repair and see if someone bids on it?

[multidon]

I have a very minor cosmetic flaw on the top of my Weber F style. 99.99 percent of people wouldn’t even be able to see it unles it was pointed out. Nevertheless, I asked for a repair estimate from Bruce Weber. I thought it could be touched up. But his quote was for a complete top refinish, and he guessed it would be in the neighborhood of $1000. Not counting shipping both ways on my dime, of course.

Now, knowing what I know about repairs, of course I know that someone who knows what they’re doing could touch it up very well. But it would probably never be perfect. Bruce only seems to have one standard. Perfection. He tells his customers that he will return their instrument and it will look like new. I guess he went to the extreme because it was the only way he could guarantee perfection. Obviously, I decided to live with the minor flaw.

The reason I tell this story is, if he charges 1000 dollars for a top refinish, what do you think he would charge to put on an all new top? 2000? 2500? I too see both sides of the argument, but at some point in a case like this you start throwing good money after bad, and you get severely diminished returns. There are lemons from every maker I’m sure. Big G is no exception. OP should probably accept that this is a lemon, and I come down on the side of him cutting his losses. There are probably a lot of amateur luthiers out there, trying to learn the trade, who would buy it as a practice piece. Did everyone see the stripped down F9 in the classifieds? No fretboard, bridge or hardware, still 1000 dollars. Granted, this one needs more work on the body, but it has its fretboard and hardware. I’ll bet there are people out there right now thinking “I could fix this, and flip it”. Then take the money and buy something else that floats your boat. That’s what I would do.

[HoGo]

I have a very minor cosmetic flaw on the top of my Weber F style. 99.99 percent of people wouldn’t even be able to see it unles it was pointed out. Nevertheless, I asked for a repair estimate from Bruce Weber. I thought it could be touched up. But his quote was for a complete top refinish, and he guessed it would be in the neighborhood of $1000. Not counting shipping both ways on my dime, of course.

Now, knowing what I know about repairs, of course I know that someone who knows what they’re doing could touch it up very well. But it would probably never be perfect. Bruce only seems to have one standard. Perfection. He tells his customers that he will return their instrument and it will look like new. I guess he went to the extreme because it was the only way he could guarantee perfection. Obviously, I decided to live with the minor flaw.

The reason I tell this story is, if he charges 1000 dollars for a top refinish, what do you think he would charge to put on an all new top? 2000? 2500? I too see both sides of the argument, but at some point in a case like this you start throwing good money after bad, and you get severely diminished returns. There are lemons from every maker I’m sure. Big G is no exception. OP should probably accept that this is a lemon, and I come down on the side of him cutting his losses. There are probably a lot of amateur luthiers out there, trying to learn the trade, who would buy it as a practice piece. Did everyone see the stripped down F9 in the classifieds? No fretboard, bridge or hardware, still 1000 dollars. Granted, this one needs more work on the body, but it has its fretboard and hardware. I’ll bet there are people out there right now thinking “I could fix this, and flip it”. Then take the money and buy something else that floats your boat. That’s what I would do.

Ouch! I charged less for the whole F-9 overhaul... but I'm not in the US so prices are different here... also it was for friend and he was open to wait till I find some time to get to it (many months) otherwise I wouldn't take it. I know of a fellow Czech luthier who ocassionally works on expensive instruments that traveling US musicians bring over there for repairs while they play gigs or spend vacation...