Gibson F9 with sunken top

[HoGo]

First I would want to have precise measurements to decide. If the top is too thin to be strenghtened again I would remove the top and make new one. If it looks like adding wood is possible I would take the back off. But the finish of F-9 is not repair friendly stuff so I guess refinish would be in place to look decent...
Here is what I did to old Schoffield mandolin with badly deformed arch and failing top (too thin overall):
https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...=1#post1367234

The owner of the Goldrush nmentioned earlier took it to Randy Wood for new top and never regretted it. (look for other thread about that mandolin where he shows the patch, which IMO was possibly added after completion of the instrument and may be work of someone else than Gibson)
From my experience the plates on the F-9 I reworked (failed neck joint) were very thick. I remember the top was close to 1/4" in center and 3.5-4mm at recurve so it had enough meat to remove to both regraduate and slightly ove the arch to the left to correct factory asymmetry (by carving away from outside on treble side and inside on bass side)

[Bernie Daniel]

sorry about not being clear about the carbon rod, it is not a sound post, it is glued or attached along the top. I can just feel it using my little finger in the f hole. it is about 6 inches long.

Lee do you think that you could post a few pics of the mandolin? We could learn something about where the top is weak by looking at the deformation pattern perhaps?

Also did Big Joe mention how thick the wood was on the top of the mandolin? If you have access to a Hacklinger gauge you could measure it yourself although with that "extra" carbon fiber tone bar in there getting the magnet where you want it I think it could get tricky

[Ivan Kelsall]

If a top / back etc. was carved 'too thinly' during it's original construction,then it's a ''manufacturing defect'' - end of !. If the defect 'fails' ie.'sinks',then regardless of how many owners the mandolin has had,it should be repaired under warranty - IMO. The business of 'only applying to the original owner',in this case, seems like a definite get-out on the part of Gibson. Gibson got it wrong for the first owner or the hundred & first !,
Ivan

[Bernie Daniel]

If a top / back etc. was carved 'too thinly' during it's original construction,then it's a ''manufacturing defect'' - end of !. If the defect 'fails' ie.'sinks',then regardless of how many owners the mandolin has had,it should be repaired under warranty - IMO. The business of 'only applying to the original owner',in this case, seems like a definite get-out on the part of Gibson. Gibson got it wrong for the first owner or the hundred & first !,
Ivan

ivan, that is more or less the way I feel also. But not so. Big Joe explained on one of the early strings about the similar Goldrush top failure that Gibson corporate most definitely does not see it that way. What is more apparently reading between the lines of Big Joe's rather detail discussion of the matter, Gibson legal has decided that the "warranty applies to original purchaser only" is to be STRICTLY adhered to.

So I would guess that even if someone like David Harvey wanted to fix it under warranty for the second owner he would not be allowed to do so. But I would think that he might be interested in having a word or two with the person who carved that obviously bogus top board?

[Br1ck]

Is it beyond the realm of possibility that this is an issue with a particular piece of wood? Could there be a hundred tops carved as thin that are problem free? Or is it a matter that no piece of wood could survive being this thin.

[Bernie Daniel]

Is it beyond the realm of possibility that this is an issue with a particular piece of wood? Could there be a hundred tops carved as thin that are problem free? Or is it a matter that no piece of wood could survive being this thin.

I think that is a good question -- I think it is possible myself. OTOH Big Joe, who was in charge of the instrument repair section of Gibson for years pronounced the top as "too thin". He logs into the forum from time to time maybe he will on this one.?

[HoGo]

I understand Ivans view. Here in our country (and perhaps majority of EU) the warranty applies by law to the product, not to the owner. Here the warranty by law is 2 years minimal (for most common products) and can be prolonged by producer but never shortened and more than few companies do go beyond that. The law only requires either cash register slip or filled warranty card that shows purchase price and date of purchase, nothing else. If the company decides to exchange faulty item or part by new, the warranty starts again fresh.

Without seeing it or having exaact numbers all we can do is chat...

[j. condino]

I like you guys and understand the desire for threads like this and resolution to your issues, but....

The F9 was a budget model factory production mandolin. The person that "carved" it simply pulled it off the cnc and threw it on the pile with the other 50 they "carved" that afternoon while making $7 an hour, trying not to get replaced by a new guy for $6 / hr. You guys need to turn off your computers and get a factory manual labor job to see what production reality is like instead of breathing fairy dust and unicorns on the internet dreaming about a bunch of Stradivaris wearing elf shoes hand carving plates all day to mythical loar specs.....

[Hendrik Ahrend]

I understand Ivans view. Here in our country (and perhaps majority of EU) the warranty applies by law to the product, not to the owner. Here the warranty by law is 2 years minimal (for most common products) and can be prolonged by producer but never shortened and more than few companies do go beyond that. The law only requires either cash register slip or filled warranty card that shows purchase price and date of purchase, nothing else. If the company decides to exchange faulty item or part by new, the warranty starts again fresh.

From what I understand and remember, I don't really think that's quite correct the way you put it; forgive my objection, Adrian. Warranty by law is, indeed, two years. If you present the "cash register slip or filled warranty card", that's fine, but even a witness would suffice.
If your item fails after one year, and it's being replaced, the warranty is - still - only one more year, instead of the warranty starting "again fresh" for another two years - at least here in Germany, which should be EU-law.

[HoGo]

From what I understand and remember, I don't really think that's quite correct the way you put it; forgive my objection, Adrian. Warranty by law is, indeed, two years. If you present the "cash register slip or filled warranty card", that's fine, but even a witness would suffice.
If your item fails after one year, and it's being replaced, the warranty is - still - only one more year, instead of the warranty starting "again fresh" for another two years - at least here in Germany, which should be EU-law.

There may be some regional differences in warranty within EU, but still basically in EU warranty is given to the item for given time regardless of who owns it.
AFAIK, here the law says that if item is replaced by new one new warranty starts - that's why quite a few sellers of cheapo stuff (OBI, Baumaxx and such) will take item for repair but they try to actually give you a new one (or sometimes they just give you one of their used ones) but paperwork says repaired so your warranty will be lengthened only by time it spent in repair. I actually had one handdrill "repaired" in this way and after telling them that the one in the box is not mine (mine was clean and barely used and the one I got after repair was dirty worn one) they gave me a new one with new warranty.
The same applies for just replacement parts. If your new LED head light of your new car fails within warranty and it is replaced by new part, the warranty on the light will start anew.

[allenhopkins]

...The F9 was a budget model factory production mandolin. The person that "carved" it simply pulled it off the cnc and threw it on the pile with the other 50 they "carved" that afternoon while making $7 an hour, trying not to get replaced by a new guy for $6 / hr. You guys need to turn off your computers and get a factory manual labor job to see what production reality is like instead of breathing fairy dust and unicorns on the internet dreaming about a bunch of Stradivaris wearing elf shoes hand carving plates all day to mythical loar specs.....

Price of a new F-9 now is apparently $5.3K. Even for a "budget model factory production" instrument, that's pricey enough to warrant some quality control checks along the way.

I was able to get a custom-designed, one-of-a-kind five-course fan-fret instrument from a good local luthier, for significantly less. No computer-controlled woodworking involved. Yes, the F-9 was/is a "no frills" instrument, but we're not talking about stamping out widgets -- or even making Chinese Epiphones. And when G starts turning out 50 mandolins a day, we'll see them back in all the dealerships, not just a few select ones.

[j. condino]

I disagree with you.

This has nothing to do with your artisan hand built one of a kind instrument. The topic is a budget model for a company that has been passed around as a capitalist entity with the sole purpose of making money for the current owners for over 100 years. All companies budget model's only purpose is to lure you in so that you'll upgrade to one of their premiums; they don't give a $hit about your quality control. It is the Nashville Epiphone; a brown no frills US made widget. Those work orders get handed out to the newest workers with the least amount of skills who work for minimum wage. Factory work sucks....I built three mandolins a day before lunch and then did the full setup and final inspections before shipping after lunch and was fired for moving to slow. Think I had time or interest in waxing Loar mythology or worrying about warranty work ten years down the road ???

[Mandoplumb]

About 10 years ago I had a Flatiron A that the top caved in right in the recurve under the tailpiece. I called Gibson, was told to ship it to them, which I did but I also told them that that I suspected that it was too thin in the recurve to check that. I got it back being told that the instrument had been in an accident and was not covered under warranty. I called them back, asked if they checked thickness, was told they they did not. I broke a piece out of the top where it had caved,took it to a mechanic friend, borrowed his micrometer, and it miced about 45 thousand. Called Gibson back with that info and was told that couldn't be because it was carved on a CNC that didn't make mistakes. After I finally got rid of that idiot and talked to someone else was told to ship it back at their expense and they would check it. I was called back and told that they were responsible but they wouldn't fix that one they would make a new one, trimmed like mine ( apparently they didn't trim the new ones the same) and would ship it to me. I know some people are always trying to get something for nothing from a big company that can " afford it" so if you're right you have to keep on them. I know that if you spend several thousand dollars for an instrument you want the company to stand behind it even if bought used, but the lifetime warranty does say to original owner. In my case I was the original owner and Gibson honored the warranty after they proved to their satisfaction that I was telling the truth.

[Eric Oliver]

Unclelee,
Can you describe the carbon rod fixture?

[multidon]

I think that grandcanyonminstrel has Gibson pegged to a T. Not to disparage Gibson in any way, because in our capitalist system, all companies reason for existence is to make money for the owners. Gibson is far from unique in that regard. And probably the most valuable money making property they own is that name. Allen brings up the price of a current F9, $5,300. I would submit that at least half of that price is in the headstock decal. That makes it more valuable than gold by a considerable margin.

Gibson is not pleasant to work with on warranty issues. I have been there twice, but never with a mandolin. 2 electric guitars however required attention. One shipped from the retailer with a totally dead pickup, the other with the incorrect pickup installed. Both issues were resolved, but it wasn’t easy or pleasant.

In my opinion, the best division Gibson has going right now is the Acoustic Guitar division in Montana. Those guys really have it going on. They make a fine instrument and some models are pretty competitively priced. IMHO the build quality is the same high standard regardless of price point. It is unfortunate that, apparently, the same can’t be said for the mandolin shop.

When Adrian (Hogo) pulled apart that F9, I remember he commented that the top plate didn’t appear to be smoothed at all and still had CNC router marks on it. That would appear to be consistent with grandcanyonminstrel’s assessment of their procedure.

Can you spend the same $5000+ and get a better mandolin than an F9? I would say yes, easily. My dream instrument is a Stiver. One of the finest builders out there, on a par with makers who charge twice, triple, quadruple what he does. But there are lots of people out there who believe the only way to get “the Gibson sound” is to buy a Gibson. To them, only the Gibson has the “true” bluegrass sound. And that’s the end of the argument. But I don’t understand how taking plates off the CNC and slapping them together in random fashion can possibly produce a sound akin to a Loar.

[Eric Hanson]

Thank you all for the information. It is an interesting read, to be sure.
It is great to know that a very high quality instrument can be purchased, even custom commisioned and better quality, for less than the price of a new F9. It is something that keeps many of us “in the game”.
Sad that a company with such a long history has lost it’s direction — The customer is king. Probably why they are having so much trouble.
A customer once told me, “You realize that you will never be looking for work, don’t you?”
I didn’t understand what she meant, initially. After thinking about it I came to realize that it is due to trying to run a company in an “old school” manner. Listen closely to the customer. Pay attention to detail. Don’t over-price your service nor product. Alway back up your work.
Thankfully to date I have seen her words come to be true.
And again, thankful that there are a number of Luthiers that believe in the trade, and the joy that comes from building something that can be valued for many years to come.

[allenhopkins]

Think there may be a slight divergence in emphasis here. Since I've never had to deal with Gibson on warranty issues, I defer to those who have, and have found them unresponsive and difficult. And definitely Gibson is a "capitalist entity with the sole [?] purpose of making money." You could say the same about any private corporation; you could say the same about the luthier who built my mandolin/dola. He charged me what I consider a significant amount of money, and I know he's paying his rent and feeding his family on the proceeds of his building and repairing instruments. http://www.lehmannstrings.com

But Gibson's "budget models," by and large, are Asian-built Epiphones and Flatirons. At a price over $5K, the F-9 should be a performance-quality instrument, and I've seen more than one professional band where the mandolinist played an F-9. To say, "Whaddaya expect from Gibson, a money-grubbing capitalist firm that sells overpriced dreck on the strength of its name and (undeserved) historical reputation," is letting them off the hook too easily.

People have praised the current Gibson builders for returning their mandolins to a higher quality standard. Several people have suggested direct contact with Mr. Harvey -- perhaps he'll read this thread -- to at least inform him that this F-9 got out the door with a too-thin top, and required extensive surgery.

I probably am naive about this, but I have to think that there are workers involved with Gibson's mandolin production -- limited as it is -- who care about the products that go out under their name, and represent their level of skill. People who take the attitude Eric has expressed above: Listen closely to the customer. Pay attention to detail. Don’t over-price your service nor product. Always back up your work.

[dhergert]

As an owner of a 2nd hand 2002 F-9 this is a very interesting thread to follow. My experience has been very positive with my F-9, so I wouldn't denigrate the whole model line, and I also wouldn't discount the possibility of getting a good instrument 2nd hand, although that does imply a greater risk... To that point, it is of value to notice that the OP was aware of top sinkage at the time that the mandolin was acquired.

It's easy to talk down about the F-9 model because it is less expensive than other models. To that point, I reference a 2003 Charlie Derrington interview where he says "... The F-9s have the same attention to detail as any of our other mandolins when it comes to tone and playability. We are able to offer them at a lower price for three reasons. The wood selection process (in reference to streaks, knots, curl, anything related to the visual and not to the tone) is less stringent and therefore less costly, and the fact that we don't have to scrape the binding (which is extremely labor intensive) and we don't have to buff the finish (again very labor intensive). We still spend the same amount of time in graduation, neck-fit, etc. as we do on our most expensive mandolin. ..."

So to me, implying that an F-9 is bound to have trouble because it is the cheapest in the model line is flawed logic. If that were the case, the same could be said about any model less expensive than a Master Model, or for that matter, anything less than an original Loar. So the F-9 -- or really any model's -- flaws that have been found are mostly a statistic of the factory production environment in which they are made.

A number of very experienced luthiers have spoken up here and in other threads about factory instruments that tended to not have anything near the personal touch that they are used to providing in their own instruments at lower prices than those factory instruments. I do think that's an excellent point.

As much as I enjoy my F-9, I know from personal experience that small shop luthiers can and do provide much better quality in their instruments. While I don't anticipate being in the mid-to-high end mandolin market again, if I were, these small shop luthiers would be the people I would be talking to. And that isn't to say that the work of the small shop lutheirs is perfect, but general history has shown that such a lutheir will be anxious to provide as perfect an instrument as possible, and to correct any problem in their instruments that they can.

As far as the OP's situation is concerned, I would suggest at least talking with David Harvey, if nothing else to get an "official" recommendation from the factory that made the mandolin. But when it comes down to the repair work itself, unless the factory can provide an unexpectedly wonderful repair offer, I'd very likely be talking to a small-shop luthier. I know from the relatively small amount of work I've had done on my F-9 by such a luthier, I've been extremely pleased.

[Br1ck]

We, I think, can all agree, the Gibson name comes at a price, but in my limited experience I have not played any other instrument that had that Gibson sound, and if that is the sound you crave you will have to pay the price. You pay a healthy price for the Collings name too, and pretty much any other brand. Any builder who builds more than a handful of instruments has to do some marketing. So an individual builder has less overhead and can maybe offer you better value, but then you go to sell and your market is going to be smaller too.

So like everything else in life, it's a trade off and you need to buy what your own sensibilities tell you to. The larger the organization, the more you have to answer to bean counters. And the more you deal with customers, the more you realize the mistreatment instruments get, so it's not always black and white. Every Harvey era Gibson I've ever played has been a fine instrument I've felt I couldn't afford. That's my problem.

Gibson has certainly done enough damage to themselves to warrant criticism, but should they sell off, the new owners will take on debt, which can only be paid off by consumers in the end.

[Bernie Daniel]

I disagree with you.

This has nothing to do with your artisan hand built one of a kind instrument. The topic is a budget model for a company that has been passed around as a capitalist entity with the sole purpose of making money for the current owners for over 100 years. All companies budget model's only purpose is to lure you in so that you'll upgrade to one of their premiums; they don't give a $hit about your quality control. It is the Nashville Epiphone; a brown no frills US made widget. Those work orders get handed out to the newest workers with the least amount of skills who work for minimum wage. Factory work sucks....I built three mandolins a day before lunch and then did the full setup and final inspections before shipping after lunch and was fired for moving to slow. Think I had time or interest in waxing Loar mythology or worrying about warranty work ten years down the road ???

So have you ever worked at Gibson or been in the factory while F-9's are being made?

The "official word" that F-9s are made in the same shop as the higher level models. Personally, I would not call work at the Gibson mandolin shop a factory setting.

My understanding is that David Harvey has a small group of individuals building mandolins. I think there is some reason to think your scenario of events with this mandolin is incorrect. Just my opinion. I think Allen might be more correct here.

I fully agree with Allen's statement that most Gibson F-9s are very nice and good sounding mandolins and they have been from the start of their production circa 2001.

As Allen correctly notes Gibson "bargain instruments" are not made in Nashville.

Something went wrong with this mandolin for sure but we still have nothing but the OP's statement that Big Joe said it was "carved too thin". Big Joe has not weighed in on (or confirmed) that comment or exactly what he meant.

I respect Big Joe's experience and opinion -- he has done some nice work for me. But has anyone actually measured the thickness of the top of this mandolin? I don't think so. No one really knows.

The OP seems to have disappeared so I guess we never will........??

It would be nice to see a pic of the mandolin that has been the topic of 46 posts!!

BD

PS if you claim that the top was carved on a CNC and then thrown on a pile why would it be too thin? The computer carves the same pattern every time does it not??? By your logic there would have been 50 tops carved too thin?

[Bernie Daniel]

As an owner of a 2nd hand 2002 F-9 this is a very interesting thread to follow. My experience has been very positive with my F-9, so I wouldn't denigrate the whole model line, and I also wouldn't discount the possibility of getting a good instrument 2nd hand, although that does imply a greater risk... To that point, it is of value to notice that the OP was aware of top sinkage at the time that the mandolin was acquired.

It's easy to talk down about the F-9 model because it is less expensive than other models. To that point, I reference a 2003 Charlie Derrington interview where he says "... The F-9s have the same attention to detail as any of our other mandolins when it comes to tone and playability. We are able to offer them at a lower price for three reasons. The wood selection process (in reference to streaks, knots, curl, anything related to the visual and not to the tone) is less stringent and therefore less costly, and the fact that we don't have to scrape the binding (which is extremely labor intensive) and we don't have to buff the finish (again very labor intensive). We still spend the same amount of time in graduation, neck-fit, etc. as we do on our most expensive mandolin. ..."

So to me, implying that an F-9 is bound to have trouble because it is the cheapest in the model line is flawed logic. If that were the case, the same could be said about any model less expensive than a Master Model, or for that matter, anything less than an original Loar. So the F-9 -- or really any model's -- flaws that have been found are mostly a statistic of the factory production environment in which they are made.

A number of very experienced luthiers have spoken up here and in other threads about factory instruments that tended to not have anything near the personal touch that they are used to providing in their own instruments at lower prices than those factory instruments. I do think that's an excellent point.

As much as I enjoy my F-9, I know from personal experience that small shop luthiers can and do provide much better quality in their instruments. While I don't anticipate being in the mid-to-high end mandolin market again, if I were, these small shop luthiers would be the people I would be talking to. And that isn't to say that the work of the small shop lutheirs is perfect, but general history has shown that such a lutheir will be anxious to provide as perfect an instrument as possible, and to correct any problem in their instruments that they can.

As far as the OP's situation is concerned, I would suggest at least talking with David Harvey, if nothing else to get an "official" recommendation from the factory that made the mandolin. But when it comes down to the repair work itself, unless the factory can provide an unexpectedly wonderful repair offer, I'd very likely be talking to a small-shop luthier. I know from the relatively small amount of work I've had done on my F-9 by such a luthier, I've been extremely pleased.

Thank you and well said Don!!!

[Bernie Daniel]

We, I think, can all agree, the Gibson name comes at a price, but in my limited experience I have not played any other instrument that had that Gibson sound, and if that is the sound you crave you will have to pay the price. You pay a healthy price for the Collings name too, and pretty much any other brand. Any builder who builds more than a handful of instruments has to do some marketing. So an individual builder has less overhead and can maybe offer you better value, but then you go to sell and your market is going to be smaller too.

So like everything else in life, it's a trade off and you need to buy what your own sensibilities tell you to. The larger the organization, the more you have to answer to bean counters. And the more you deal with customers, the more you realize the mistreatment instruments get, so it's not always black and white. Every Harvey era Gibson I've ever played has been a fine instrument I've felt I couldn't afford. That's my problem.

Gibson has certainly done enough damage to themselves to warrant criticism, but should they sell off, the new owners will take on debt, which can only be paid off by consumers in the end.

For sure!

And I have no problem with calling out Gibson when blame is due. But IMO there has HARDLY been enough evidence presented in this case to "go off" on Gibson it seems to me. The OP was not even the first owner -- who knows what has happened to this mandolin? Did someone try to "hot rod" it before the OP got it for example?

[Bernie Daniel]

I'll add one more point.

I currently have two Gibson F-style mandolins (F-5G and Sam Bush) covering 2004 to 2007. I have looked inside both of them - - no CNC marks. In the past I've also looked inside the the 2002 Gibson Fern and the 2001 Sam Bush that I used to have (I inspect every mandolin and also run the Hacklinger gauge on them - just curious). None of these Gibson mandolins nor the 2001 A-9 I had showed any signs of a CNC machine grooves on any plate. So putting CNC'd tops directly on a mandolin is probably NOT a routine thing at Gibson.

That said, I readily admit that it could happen. But even if it did why would that result is a top that is too THIN????? Generally the complaint about using a CNC top is that the top comes off the machine too THICK!!

After the CNC process the the top or back has to be hand carved DOWN to the proper graduations? So those two scenarios (CNC only and too thin) do not seem to fit IMO?

[Big Joe]

Good morning gentlemen and ladies. When I was at the Big G the corporate stand was any warranty claims had to be done only for the original owner with his sales receipt. If you were not the original purchaser there was no warranty on the instrument. That information was stated on the warranty card, the company website, and in discussions with the owner. It was not my policy,but I had to comply with corporate policy or go somewhere else to work. I cannot speak as to what current policy is since the recent changes in management. As to the instrument from the OP, I do not recall that particular instrument. So many instruments passed through my hands over the years, it is hard to remember a particular instrument out of context. We began doing carbon graphite repairs in the early 90’s and it is a great material to work with. As to what Gibson now will do is only going to be known by contacting them. I seriously doubt they will be able to do anything, but that is not my call. While Charlie was still in charge of the Bluegrass division he was very good about helping when he saw a real issue. He went even beyond what many would think reasonable to help those who bought from that era. On Jan 1, 2005 Charlie was no longer in charge of the Bluegrass division. They had a significant management change in the division at that time. Life changed at the division at that time, and there were layoffs over time, as well as employee turnover. Charlie was killed by an illegal alien driving drunk on the wrong side of a divided highway and ran over Charlie while he was on his motorcycle. I know I haven’t answered many questions, but that is the information I have at hand.

[Bernie Daniel]

Good morning gentlemen and ladies. When I was at the Big G the corporate stand was any warranty claims had to be done only for the original owner with his sales receipt. If you were not the original purchaser there was no warranty on the instrument. That information was stated on the warranty card, the company website, and in discussions with the owner. It was not my policy,but I had to comply with corporate policy or go somewhere else to work. I cannot speak as to what current policy is since the recent changes in management. As to the instrument from the OP, I do not recall that particular instrument. So many instruments passed through my hands over the years, it is hard to remember a particular instrument out of context. We began doing carbon graphite repairs in the early 90’s and it is a great material to work with. As to what Gibson now will do is only going to be known by contacting them. I seriously doubt they will be able to do anything, but that is not my call. While Charlie was still in charge of the Bluegrass division he was very good about helping when he saw a real issue. He went even beyond what many would think reasonable to help those who bought from that era. On Jan 1, 2005 Charlie was no longer in charge of the Bluegrass division. They had a significant management change in the division at that time. Life changed at the division at that time, and there were layoffs over time, as well as employee turnover. Charlie was killed by an illegal alien driving drunk on the wrong side of a divided highway and ran over Charlie while he was on his motorcycle. I know I haven’t answered many questions, but that is the information I have at hand.

Thanks Joe! Hey check your email later today for some pics!