Real talk: Are the C strings in the J78 packs dead?

[thecelloronin]

Hello all,

D'addario gets a lot of praise for manufacturing mandocello strings of pretty reliable quality. However, after having heard enough 'cellos string with these, I'm always left unimpressed by the response and resonance of the C strings, which sound duller and quieter than their counterparts.

The question I have is: do mandocelli around the 24.5-25.5" scale range all have this dead spot as a feature, rather than a bug (similar to a wolf note on on violoncello), or are J78's just simply too thick to sound worth a damn in the lower register?

I'm working on getting other types of mandocello strings to compare, but in the meantime I thought I'd tap into the collective wisdom of the 'cafe. How y'all feelin bout these strangs?

[Jim Garber]

My experience with D'Addario over many years is that they are very open to feedback on their products. Discussing it here is also a good idea but, if you are so inclined, I would suggest contacting them with your concerns and I would think they might work with you to remedy the problem. I have heard good things about some of the other string companies as well.

[thecelloronin]

Hi Jim,

That's a great idea. This thread is not meant to disparage D'Addario in any way–I'm grateful that they make easily obtainable m'cello strings of otherwise great quality. That said, before I take your suggestion, I do want to make sure the issue is with the strings, rather than the mandocelli I've played.

To rephrase my initial question: is the mandocello somewhat like the viola, in that its proportions impose sonic limitations on certain registers? Tangentially, does anyone else have the same gripe as me, and has changing strings/string gauges fixed the issue if so?

[fumblefour]

Not sure if this is strictly relevant, but I seem to recall (from an Artistworks video exchange) that Mike Marshall has been speaking to D'Addario about providing Mandocello C strings at a lighter gauge (.070 instead of .074). But whether that would address your issue I have no idea.

I am a total novice with the Mandocello, but the Newtone strings which came with my Hathway m'cello (26 inch scale) include .070 C strings which to my inexperienced ears sound pretty good and lively.

[Jim Imhoff]

I was having trouble with buzz on the C string as I developed more strength and accuracy in the 4th finger. Mike Marshall suggested lighter strings and my local Fretworks guy put together a set with C .066, using guitar strings with the ball-ends punched out. I think I am playing a little better now and plan to use slightly heavier (.070?) strings when I freshen up. I do think the lighter strings, while easier to play, produce a less impressive boom of sound, even when open. I do wish there were more options on this point, like there are with guitar and mandolin. This thread has given me helpful information (love the Cafe!) and I will shop around.

[thecelloronin]

Hey Doc James, thanks for the input. I've come a long way in fretting the C course properly (even with my undersized pinky!), but even then I'm unimpressed with the resonance of the J78 C's on each instrument I've tried them on. For reference, those instruments include my beloved Pomeroy, my previous 1914 Gibson K-1, my Wishnevsky, and a Goldtone I randomly picked up once. Admittedly, this isn't a massive cross section of instruments, but they all have the same sonic issue in common, as well as the string set. Got me to thinking...

[Jim Imhoff]

Upping the date: I contacted Neil Silverman as suggested here and got an immediate positive response. Newtone will make me a set of C .070-based strings (G, D, & A slightly lighter than J78's), costing only a little more, but well worth the "custom" work. In my Artistworks mandocello lesson Mike M did talk about .070 as a perfectly reasonable gauge; maybe D'Addario will come around. My only concern with Newtone is they are in the UK, and between Brexit and trade wars I might be targeted by MI6 (I believe MI5 is strictly UK national, so I am safe from them.) If they do send a James Bond after me, I want it to be Idris Elba.

[thecelloronin]

Upping the date: I contacted Neil Silverman as suggested here and got an immediate positive response. Newtone will make me a set of C .070-based strings (G, D, & A slightly lighter than J78's), costing only a little more, but well worth the "custom" work. In my Artistworks mandocello lesson Mike M did talk about .070 as a perfectly reasonable gauge; maybe D'Addario will come around. My only concern with Newtone is they are in the UK, and between Brexit and trade wars I might be targeted by MI6 (I believe MI5 is strictly UK national, so I am safe from them.) If they do send a James Bond after me, I want it to be Idris Elba.

Careful, importing high-grade mandocello strings is likely to catch the attention of musicians within the NSA, TSA, and ATF as well.

Edit: Also, please do report back any sonic differences you notice with the Newtone strings.

[Jim Imhoff]

OMG You're right! I am now placing my computer, cell phone, and mandocello in the microwave to remove any trace! Now how can I erase all record of my Mandolin Cafe entries?

[thecelloronin]

OMG You're right! I am now placing my computer, cell phone, and mandocello in the microwave to remove any trace! Now how can I erase all record of my Mandolin Cafe entries?

Open up Chrome in an incognito tab should do the trick!

[Mandobart]

I've bought a lot of Newtone strings (but not custom sets) through the well known online string companies, never had an issue with price or delivery. They all come with a warning not to cut/trim the strings until after you put them on the instrument. First time I read that I thought "who does that (cut strings before you put them on)?" its like warning me not to eat dessicant packs....

[NotMelloCello]

Lawyers doing their CYA thing.... But you know, some moron tried it - or there wouldn't be a warning.

[Mandobar]

Newtone strings generally have a round core. You need to tune them up to pitch and the trim them. Many people will get just enough tension on the strings and then trim them, and then tune them up. The warning is an attempt to save them from dealing people contacting them and telling them there is something wrong with their strings. I’m not sure Malcom is lawyer-oriented, aside from the fact that his business is not in the US.

[thecelloronin]

Just wanted to follow up on this.

I just strung up the old Pomeroy with some Dogal Calace strings. I have to say, it has made ALL the difference in the world. Once again, I mean not to disparage D'addario with this post, but I do feel as though the J78's "constrain" the low C. The Calace Cs are massively resonant, producing a far more complex sound than before. It's like I'm truly hearing my mandocello for the first time, and I don't think I'll be going back.

From my violoncello playing days, I'd reckon this experience by the feeling you get when upgrading from basic Red Label strings to high-end Jargars or Larsens. My mandocello not only sounds better, but it plays better too.

[AndyV]

Just wanted to follow up on this.

I just strung up the old Pomeroy with some Dogal Calace strings. I have to say, it has made ALL the difference in the world. Once again, I mean not to disparage D'addario with this post, but I do feel as though the J78's "constrain" the low C. The Calace Cs are massively resonant, producing a far more complex sound than before. It's like I'm truly hearing my mandocello for the first time, and I don't think I'll be going back.

From my violoncello playing days, I'd reckon this experience by the feeling you get when upgrading from basic Red Label strings to high-end Jargars or Larsens. My mandocello not only sounds better, but it plays better too.

I was going to ask you what gauges, but then thought I could just check on-line. I don't see mandocello strings on their site. Did you order a custom set? More to the point, what gauges?


Thanks!

[Jim Garber]

Strings by Mail have them listed. The RW93A looks like the right one but the package says RW93 and the description says for 10 string. I would check with the dealer before ordering. I have a feeling that the description is incorrect. The set shown next to them on that page is for 10 string (liuto).

I love Dogal Calace strings on my bowlbacks and they might be very nice on a mandocello as well.

[AndyV]

Strings by Mail have them listed. The RW93A looks like the right one but the package says RW93 and the description says for 10 string. I would check with the dealer before ordering. I have a feeling that the description is incorrect. The set shown next to them on that page is for 10 string (liuto).

I love Dogal Calace strings on my bowlbacks and they might be very nice on a mandocello as well.

Thank you. I don't see gauges listed. ?

[Jim Garber]

Thank you. I don't see gauges listed. ?

I don't know if they even list the gauges on the wrapper but you could try asking Dogal directly by clicking their Request Info button or perhaps Strings by Mail can check for you.

[thecelloronin]

Dogal's nomenclature for the Calace line is actually quite straightforward, and will help you understand their product line a lot better. "HR" is "half-round", "RW" is "round-wound", "A" denotes an included E course for 10-string liuto, "MW" signifies their unique "multi-wire core".

The half round series stands alone without the other modifiers, while the round wound series can include an extra string (A), or have G and C strings contain a twin-stranded core instead of a single wire (MW), or both (AMW).

From a Dogal rep:

The multi wire core gives more softness and makes playing much more comfortable. We are using the same technology used for the Cello. The G and D strings are the thicker strings in the set that is why we have developed these strings which allow to have a warm round sound though with a very comfortable playability also for small hands. We are using materials of our own conception, developed to allow all these advantages and last longer.

(There is also a separate line, V76. This is their "green" or "verde" line, and it contains flat wound bronze strings, which I haven't tried yet)

When I went through Strings By Mail, I ordered two sets: HR138 and RW93AMW.

I tried to string up my round wound set first, starting with the low C, eager to try out the multi wire with my (indeed very) small hands. After 3/4 of a wind around my tuning post, the string windings separate, and the twin cores pop! Pissed but undaunted and curious, I try the other C; same deal. Clearly, these strings were designed with wider-radius classical tuners in mind. In other words: the RW93MW "multi-wire" set will probably pop when stringing it on anything but a classical mandoloncello or liuto cantabile, due to the difference in tuner design. Attempt at your own risk, YMMV.

(I also tried out a novel wound E string pair, which also popped a good major third down when I was tuning it up. I would love to hear how they sound, but I doubt I'll get the chance on my instrument. I then tried the unwound, plain E from the RW93AMW pack, and they took their tune without problem).

The half-round strings, however, worked like a charm. They're currently on the mandocello, and show no signs of failure. I can't really rave about their sonic characteristics enough. Less "brassy" than PB, but still bright. They're responsive too, and feel a little more pliant to fret. That said, they're much better "behaved", especially useful when trying to avoid buzz on low strings - a challenge any mandocellist knows well. All the gripe I had about D'Addario's EJ78's low end is completely gone from these strings. My Dogal C strings have a transparency and projection categorically more useful than anything produced by the EJ78s. I say that with full affection for the strings that have served me for so many years now.

I also got the gauges directly from the same Dogal rep:

RW93
A 0.59mm ~ .023"
D 0.82mm ~ .032"
G 1.29mm ~ .051"
C 1.90mm ~ .075"

RW93MW
A 0.59mm ~ .023"
D 0.82mm ~ .032"
G 1.33mm ~ .052"
C 1.90mm ~ .075"

HR138
A 0.59mm ~ .023"
D 0.90mm ~ .035"
G 1.38mm ~ .054"
C 1.84mm ~ .072"

For reference, here are the official product listings: https://www.dogalstrings.it/it/mandoloncello

Hope this answers some questions about these strings!