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Thread: Heavier strings=louder volume?

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    Default Heavier strings=louder volume?

    I am still trying to cope with the physics behind string tension and gauge. Does using heavier/thicker strings promote more volume? I understand that the tighter the string the higher the note---and the looser the string the lower the note. Also, I get that the thinner the string the higher the note and that the shorter the string the higher the note.

    However-if I want to increase volume and generate more volume, will using a thicker string (for example a larger gauge G string) increase volume? And, inversely, does a thinner string G string decrease volume. I openly admit to being brain challenged. Thanks

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    Default Re: Heavier strings=louder volume?

    In my experience, heavier strings seem to be louder but I suspect that this is because you can hit them harder before they distort and rattle. On the other hand, the heavier the string, the more this is likely to restrict vibration in the soundboard. You have to be violent and “strike a happy medium”.

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    Registered User Timbofood's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heavier strings=louder volume?

    Heavier strings will put an increased load on the top and, up to a point, that will increase volume. Past the maximum capacity of the top to bear the added load it will just do what Ray has said and not improve anything.
    I went through a phase of seriously heavy gauge stringsfor several years when my Alvarez was new and it really drove the top hard and as soon as I went back to stock gauge sets, it really came on strong and broader in tone quality.
    So, my personal, non scientific, take away from the heavy string experiment (3 years with the heavy) was that it worked for me.
    The heavy set I had gauged up was 13-18-32-48 (as near as I can remember) back then my band was playing anywhere from three to six nights a week and we were young and “full of juice” as the saying goes. I doubt I’d do that again but maybe for a set or two to see how another mandolin reacts.
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    Registered User John Soper's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heavier strings=louder volume?

    I had the experience with one mandolin that when I switched to J75s from J74s, it gave a compression effect. Picking more gently seemed louder than before, but there wasn't as much volume when I was playing hard & really whipping it. Went back to J74s for the dynamics.

    Due to hand issues, I haven't repeated that experiment with other mandolins, so YMMV.

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    Default Re: Heavier strings=louder volume?

    It is totally mandolin dependent. Some may like the heavier strings, some may not. I know it's a pretty non answer, but that's the way it is. Try it and see which type of mandolin you have. Make sure your mandolin can handle heavy strings, some cannot.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Heavier strings=louder volume?

    As a general rule, most modern mandolins will sound better with medium strings vs. light strings. Heavier strings typically sound better than mediums. This is only a generalization. As others stated, it will be mandolin specific. There are other things at play as well. Lighter strings are under less tension and it is easier to bend them out of tune and get them to buzz.
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Heavier strings=louder volume?

    Because I broke a string, I have one heavy G string and one light one. They have a different timbre. I think the lighter G string seems louder, but that may just be the brighter timbre that it has.

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    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heavier strings=louder volume?

    Heavier gauge strings due to the very fact that they are heavier,require more force to move them = needing to pick harder, especially on the G & D strings. I realised that when i put DR MD12s on my Lebeda mandolin. I also realised that the heavier strings robbed me of some clarity - so !. I put my usual DR MD11s back on,picked as hard on those as i had on the MD12s & got the volume i'd been after - plus the clarity returned.

    Heavier strings aren't always the best solution !,
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    Default Re: Heavier strings=louder volume?

    Yea , basically they hold up against your hitting them harder and then they move the mandolin top.
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    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heavier strings=louder volume?

    The physics of changing to heavier strings is as follows.

    Let's start with what does NOT change: The frequencies of the open notes remain the same (G,D,A,E). The scale length is the same.

    The frequency of a given open note, f, is given by this formula:

    f = (1/2L)* SQRT[T/mu]

    where L is the scale length, SQRT means "square root," T is the string tension, and mu is the mass per unit length of the string (that is, the linear density of the string).

    So what is different about heavier strings?

    1) Obviously, they carry more mass. So mu is larger.

    2) They also have to carry proportionally more tension, since T/mu must remain unchanged in order to sound the same open note! Increase the string mass, and you must increase the string tension in direct proportion. This is important to realize!

    The greater mass means that when you deflect a string by the same amount with a pick and then release it, it will carry more kinetic energy. Since the job of the mandolin body is to convert this string vibrational energy into radiated sound, a heavier string will tend to radiate more energy, and therefore sound louder.

    The greater string tension also translates into a greater downbearing force being placed on the bridge. How the mandolin reacts to this force is complicated. It depends on the string break angle over the bridge. It depends on the amount of stress present in the first place, before switching to a heavier string. Yes, some mandolins will sound a bit louder with greater downbearing force. But others will not. If the top is significantly stressed already, it may not any sound louder, and it might even sound softer. In my opinion, the change in downbearing force (due to tension) is not nearly as important a factor as the change in string energy (due to greater mass).

    Of course, the increased string tension means that it now becomes harder to deflect a given string by the same amount with a pick. And if the initial deflection is smaller, the potential (that is, elastic) energy stored in the string will be correspondingly less.

    So, as you can see, there are conflicting tendencies, here. IF you can pick hard enough to displace heavier strings by the same amount (or even by a comparable amount) as with the lighter strings, then the chances are pretty good that the heavier strings will sound louder. They may also provide slightly greater sustain, as well. However, if you don't change your pickstroke, and release the string from the pick at nearly the same horizontal tension, that will lead to less deflection, leading to no real increase in loudness. In fact, it might even sound softer!

    This, of course, sets aside issues of action height and suchlike. Strings under reduced tension are floppier and may be deflected more, and require a correspondingly higher action. I am also setting aside differences in timbre (tone), which will also occur.

    In summary, some mandolins sound louder with heavier strings, and some do not. It not only depends on the mandolin, but also on the player. If you have a heavy picking hand, you might be able to take advantage of the increased mass (an advantage), and live with the increased string tension (a disadvantage). Also, be aware that increasing the string tension also makes the fretting hand work harder, not just the picking hand. So there are trade-offs. No question about it: you have to work a bit harder with heavier strings. The increase in volume therefore comes at some cost. Whether you are willing to pay that cost depends on your musical style, your body physique, your playing technique, and your mandolin.
    Last edited by sblock; Dec-29-2018 at 6:00pm.

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  12. #11
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    Default Re: Heavier strings=louder volume?

    You can, of course, find strings with the same diameter, but a smaller core wire. That will give you more mass, with less tension than the same diameter and a lager core wire. The core wire on J74 G string is .015 while the core wire on GHS A270 G string is .016. The tension on the J74 would be slightly less than the GHS. Both strings are .040 diameter.
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    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heavier strings=louder volume?

    Er, not exactly. As the formula above shows, the ratio of the (mass per unit length) to the (string tension) must remain constant to get the same frequency of vibration. This holds for wound and unwound strings alike. Therefore, if you increase the linear density by reducing the core wire size and increasing the winding wire size -- all while keeping the string the same diameter -- then you'd have to increase the tension (which is almost entirely borne by the core) to get the same note. There is no free lunch!

    The advantage of using a winding is to decrease the overall diameter of the string for a given note sounded, by raising the linear density. However, the use of a winding does not decrease the amount of tension required. If anything, the thin core needs to support a higher tension. A narrower core can also make the string easier to bend, so that's an additional feature. And easier to fret, in all likelihood. But being easier to fret and easier to bend do not imply that the core is supporting a reduced tension. And, of course, wound strings have a different timbre/tone.

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    Default Re: Heavier strings=louder volume?

    I beg to differ, but a .036 G string will tune to the same note as a .042 G string. I have put .030 G strings on a banjo mandolin and tuned to the same G note as my mandolin with a .041. I haven't measured, but I doubt the .030 has the same core as a .041, .038, .036. All G strings.

    Also a plain string can tune to the same note, a .009, .010, .011 will all have different tensions tuned to an E note on the mandolin.
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    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heavier strings=louder volume?

    The extra string tension of heavier gauge strings also means that you have to pick 'harder' in order to move the string by the same amount. Also,while the 'note' might be exactly the same judged by it's frequency - the 'timbre' will change. That's why i noticed a reduction in 'clarity' when i went over the DR MD12's on my Lebeda after using MD11's for so long.

    The bottom line is, that if you add more weight (mass) to anything,then in order to move it by a similar amount - extra force is needed.

    From sblock - " ....that will lead to less deflection, leading to no real increase in loudness. In fact, it might even sound softer !" Absolutely !!. IMHO,that's the real danger of going over to heavier strings if you don't realise that you need to pick harder on them. Simply playing in your usual way won't produce the added volume. I had to pick harder on the DR MD12s than i did on the MD11s & also experienced a reduction in clarity on the G & D strings & to some extent on the A & E strings. Going back to MD11's & playing harder on those,produced almost more volume than i wanted + the clarity of tone returned.
    If you want more volume - pick harder - it works fine !,
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    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heavier strings=louder volume?

    Quote Originally Posted by pops1 View Post
    I beg to differ, but a .036 G string will tune to the same note as a .042 G string. I have put .030 G strings on a banjo mandolin and tuned to the same G note as my mandolin with a .041. I haven't measured, but I doubt the .030 has the same core as a .041, .038, .036. All G strings.

    Also a plain string can tune to the same note, a .009, .010, .011 will all have different tensions tuned to an E note on the mandolin.
    I suspect you may have misunderstood posts #10 and #12. Of course all mandolin G-strings will sound the G note when played open! (That's why we call them G-strings.) This is true regardless of whether they're wound (as they all are, in practice) or unwound, or what the relative sizes of the core and the winding might be. Or the compositions of the windings, for that matter (brass, steel, nickel, phosphor bronze, monel, etc).

    The point is that to sound an open G note, the ratio of T/mu (the tension divided by the mass-per-unit-length) must be the same for every one of these different types of G strings. That's how the physics works, and it's what the formula in post #10 is telling us.

    You can play with the relative thicknesses of the core and the winding, making the core either smaller or larger. You can also make the overall string diameter thinner or thicker -- note that the formula for the note frequency does not depend in any way on what the string thickness is! But if you do anything to increase the linear density of the string (that is, make mass-per-unit-length higher), then you ALSO have to make the string tension higher, too. That's because T/mu remains exactly the same value for all open strings tuned to a G note. Increase mu, and you must also increase T: it's that simple! In a phrase: a heavier G string must always be tuned to a higher tension.

    That means that you cannot reduce the size of the core, relative to the winding, and expect to somehow wind up with a lower-tension G string, as you suggested in post #11. In reality, you get a higher-tension G string.

    Ivan is absolutely right that higher-tension, heavier strings require harder picking to deflect them by the same amount. Unfortunately, playing around with different combinations of core size and winding size does not provide some kind of "loophole" to get around that issue. That's what the physics tells us. If you can manage to pick harder -- and also to fret harder! -- and your mandolin can handle the extra tension (not all can), then you can achieve greater loudness with heavier strings. But pick equally hard, and you won't get that extra volume. But you will get a different tone, or timbre. There are plenty of reasons besides volume to choose heavier, or lighter, strings. Or strings of a different composition. Or different core/winding ratios.

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    Default Re: Heavier strings=louder volume?

    I may be totally wrong about this, but when I put a .036 on my Martin to have less tension, or buy light strings for a bowl back mandolin, in order to meet the specifications of a G string the tension will not be less. A lot of people using light strings on instruments needing them will not be happy about that. The tension is less on the .036 on my Martin, and and the diameter is less. The core is .0135 which is less than the .016 of my .040 the diameter is .036 so less than my .040, but the note is still G. The relationship of T/mu may have to stay the same, but the core, diameter and tension are less and still able to make the same note. Which is what I am talking about. So the relationship of a smaller core with a smaller winding is still compatible to a G note with less tension on the instrument.

    I hope we are in the same ballpark.
    Last edited by pops1; Dec-30-2018 at 3:09pm.
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    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heavier strings=louder volume?

    Quote Originally Posted by pops1 View Post
    I may be totally wrong about this, but when I put a .036 on my Martin to have less tension, or buy light strings for a bowl back mandolin, in order to meet the specifications of a G string the tension will not be less. A lot of people using light strings on instruments needing them will not be happy about that. The tension is less on the .036 on my Martin, and and the diameter is less. The core is .0135 which is less than the .016 of my .040 the diameter is .036 so less than my .040, but the note is still G. The relationship of T/mu may have to stay the same, but the core, diameter and tension are less and still able to make the same note. Which is what I am talking about. So the relationship of a smaller core with a smaller winding is still compatible to a G note with less tension on the instrument.

    I hope we are in the same ballpark.
    Yes, a thinner/lighter string carrying less mass per unit length will sound a G note under less tension. A thicker/heavier string requires more tension to sound the same G note. The diameter of the string is largely irrelevant to this discussion, except that thinner strings tend to carry less mass per unit length, as a rule -- and therefore need less tension. But as was pointed out earlier in the thread, one can trade off the core size with the winding size to obtain a string with basically the same diameter, but with a different linear mass. And yes, a smaller core AND a smaller winding, together, will certainly produce a string with less mass, and therefore less tension. But that isn't at all relevant to what the OP was asking us about, which was whether heavier strings were louder strings. Lighter strings under lower tension tend to be quieter strings.

    Anyway, at the risk of repeating myself, it's not the diameter (gauge) of the string that matters, and that's especially true for wound strings! It's only the mass-per-unit length (the "weight") of the string that matters. And the tension.

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    Default Re: Heavier strings=louder volume?

    There's also a possible 'optimum' string gauge for each mandolin - which,maybe in itself might require a bit of trial & error. All mandolins are different to one degree or another = not all strings suit all mandolin in the same way = obvious,but unless you try them out,you'll never know. The same with our picks,something else that we're all familiar with.

    At the moment,having tried out several string brands / gauges,i think that i've found the best string/pick combos for each of my 3. So,unless something pretty revolutionary comes up - i'll stick !,
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    Default Re: Heavier strings=louder volume?

    One of the first things I do with nearly every instrument I buy is to get the 'right' strings on. I tend to be interested in guitars and mandolins performing to their best and nearly always it tends to be with reasonably heavy strings. Mandolin is always 11-40. I wouldn't dream of ever using the 10-34 unless it was a very lightweight Martin style or lightly built traditional mandolin. Even then I'd be thinking 11-38. I always find the instrument sounds louder and to me that is a must. Even playing at home. Exactly the same with guitar. I nearly always use 12-53 or 54 even with my 00 size full scale length but some really great guitars get all that volume and tone with 11-52 guage. I have such a guitar. A rare Stanford PSRD28 (which is for sale).

    Having said the above, I usually play with a plectrum. If I do fingerstyle then a lightweight guitar with 11 guage on would be preferable.

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    Registered User rowka's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heavier strings=louder volume?

    One problem of semantics always plagues discussion like this.
    People often confuse tension with stiffness.

    Core diameter and shape (round vs. hexagonal) can have a significant effect on stiffness (which folks tend to equate to tension) without actually affecting tension.

    This arises because for any given string as you tune up to pitch, increase the tension, the stiffness also increases, of that particular string.

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    Registered User sblock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heavier strings=louder volume?

    Quote Originally Posted by rowka View Post
    One problem of semantics always plagues discussion like this.
    People often confuse tension with stiffness.

    Core diameter and shape (round vs. hexagonal) can have a significant effect on stiffness (which folks tend to equate to tension) without actually affecting tension.


    This arises because for any given string as you tune up to pitch, increase the tension, the stiffness also increases, of that particular string.
    Yes, semantics matter, and you are correct to point out that people can confuse the terms tension and stiffness. But I'm afraid to say that you have confused these a bit, yourself. Sorry. In physics, the stiffness of a string is related to its Young's modulus (E), which is (basically) a measure of the elasticity of the string material. It is the the ratio of stress to strain, which an intrinsic property of the material of the string. Put another way, the stiffness of a string is a measure of its flexibility/compliance.

    The stiffness therefore does NOT depend on the string tension. It is certainly true that a string placed under higher tension is harder to deflect, and therefore resists the pick more, and is also harder to fret. But that is almost entirely due to the string tension, not to its stiffness.

    As you tune up to pitch, a string gets harder to deflect, and to fret. But it does not get any "stiffer." Instead, it gets more tense (higher tension). People may think of this change, informally, as getting more "stiff," but strictly speaking, that's incorrect. The stiffness of a string is not a function of its tension. A nylon string and a steel string of equal length, and placed under the same tension, will be equally hard to deflect. Nylon strings tend to be easier to fret because they have less mass, and therefore are placed under less tension, than steel strings tuned to the same notes. Not because they are less stiff.

    Anyway, looking over the earlier comments in this thread, I was not able to find a place where someone confused stiffness with tension -- although I might have missed something.
    Last edited by sblock; Jan-05-2019 at 11:52am.

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    Registered User f5loar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heavier strings=louder volume?

    After 50 some years of trying all types/gauges of strings on mandolins I will say it's up to what floats your boat, not what floats someone else's boat. We all have different "attack" on how we strike the strings. It's a matter of finding that right string for you and your mandolin. And right, not all mandolins can handle those heavy strings. String Companies seemed to keep us up on trying something new. Different materials and different make up of the gauge. It's hard to just say heavy when there are so many different degrees of heaviness. Some are more medium heavy. If you go to heavy you could have nut and bridge groove problems.

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