A style / F style - Which came first ??.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Gibson mandolin models were apparently ''catalogued'' as "A" style & "F" style. I know that many folk once thought as i did,that the "F" stood for 'Florentine',but i've never read of why the "A" style was an "A" style - but if they were catalogued as such,then it makes sense - but why so far apart ?.

It would make more sense that if Gibson were making 2 styles of mandolin at the same time,they'd catalogue them in order ie. 'A' style & then 'B' style (?) - but we have the 'A' style,& for the next model we skip to 'F' style ??.

So - were both styles produced at the same time,or did the "A" style come first,& then after a period of time,the "F" style was introduced ??. If that was the case - did Gibson make any instruments designated B/C/D/E 'styles' ?,
Ivan

[Mandoplumb]

Ivan your mistake is trying to make sense of Gibson's labeling system. Look at the numbers that was used and reused on different mandolins. A F5 then F7 then F 10, where is the 6,8, and 9. Wait a minute the F9 was made many years later. The A5 appeared in the 50's? as a two point oval hole, discontinued, and many years reappeared as a F5 without the scroll or points. The only sense you can make from Gibson designation is it makes no sense,

[Ivan Kelsall]

I agree with your comments completely - However,i was hoping that there was indeed some form of logic applied to the instrument designations. Maybe a reference to an old Gibson instrument catalogue might shed some light on it ??,
Ivan

[Ray(T)]

Totally logical! You start with “A” and when you produce something significantly different, to leave some wiggle room, you don’t call it “B” you call it something later in the alphabet - in Gibson’s case, they chose “F” and the same with numbers; although they don’t seem to have cottoned on to this technique with the A, A1, A2, A3 and A4 models.

I think you’ll find that car manufacturers have done much ths same but I appreciate that Ivan has never had much interest in those.

[Astro]

One day, in a cave deep under Nashville, archeologists will find the fossil evidence of B, C, D, and E style mandolins. Until then, we must believe in the theory of Loarvolution whereby sometime around the Loar era, bored luthiers began comically tinkering on instrument shapes resulting in Gibprotrusion and that eventually somehow granted some survival advantage over their rounded predecessors and which, over the millennia, eventually resulted in the Florentine horn. But until then we must assume styles B-E to be missing links. Oh, and there are probably some monkeys in there somewhere.

[Zach Wilson]

Dont forget to consider the letter 'H' for Mandolas. The body style doesn't change but the size and the tuning does. Wierd.

And there are also Breedlove 'K' shapes to consider.

[Astro]

OK, it was just a theory...

[Ray(T)]

I don’t know why we’re worrying - look at the range of Martin guitars - O, OO, OOO, C, D, M!

[UsuallyPickin]

Hey Astro won't that dig be in Kalamazoo, MI?

[Ivan Kelsall]

Hi Ray - I'm not 'worrying'. It simply seems to me that if you have 2 mandolin designs in production,that you'd 'maybe' catalogue them with consecutive 'letters / numbers'.

Cafe member Sean Keegan sent me this info.cribbed from the book on Gibson mandolins:-
It would seem that the Gibson 'mandolin designation anomalies' that we all love, date back to the very begining !. However,it would also seem that Orville Gibson referred to the "F" style as the ''Artist'' Model. So - if the "A" style came first,which, judging by the reference to the patent applications,might very well be the case - why not call the 2 models "A1" & "A2" - why the leap to the "F" model ?. You don't need 'wiggle room either. Any subsequent mandolin models would 'logically'' be "A3" /"A4" etc., Oh well !,
Ivan

[G7MOF]

Could the F style just be the shape of the hole?

[Trich]

Could the F style just be the shape of the hole?

Early Gibsons were oval hole. The f holes came later on.

[V70416]

Lest we forget that around the mid-1990's(IIRC) the beloved C# shape came along;so
named because it is about halfway between an A and an F-shape mandolin.
Not sure but the first person I knew of who built a C# mandolin(and called it that) was Bill Bussman.

[Mandoplumb]

Lest we forget that around the mid-1990's(IIRC) the beloved C# shape came along;so
named because it is about halfway between an A and an F-shape mandolin.
Not sure but the first person I knew of who built a C# mandolin(and called it that) was Bill Bussman.

It was the name C# that came into being in the late 80's or 90's. Gibson as well as others were making them much earlier. Gibson in th 50's, which by the way they called an A5.

[mandolin tony]

why did Henry Ford make the model T before the model A ?. same reason I would think, because he could & people would buy his cars no matter what.

[Hendrik Ahrend]

Hi Ray - I'm not 'worrying'. It simply seems to me that if you have 2 mandolin designs in production,that you'd 'maybe' catalogue them with consecutive 'letters / numbers'.

Cafe member Sean Keegan sent me this info.cribbed from the book on Gibson mandolins:-
It would seem that the Gibson 'mandolin designation anomalies' that we all love, date back to the very begining !. However,it would also seem that Orville Gibson referred to the "F" style as the ''Artist'' Model. So - if the "A" style came first,which, judging by the reference to the patent applications,might very well be the case - why not call the 2 models "A1" & "A2" - why the leap to the "F" model ?. You don't need 'wiggle room either. Any subsequent mandolin models would 'logically'' be "A3" /"A4" etc., Oh well !,
Ivan

Dear Ivan, my reasoning is the following: If you - for whatever reason - happen to start off with an A-model, naming the second model „B“ would seem like lower quality, wouldn’t it? (Think B-grade wood or what have you, or B-movie.) Now, the F-model is so far not related to such quality aspect that customers are led to think the F-designation must be tied to some very peculiar reason (which in reality it isn’t). And that is exactly what happened; look at us nerds talking.��

[Gelsenbury]

Now, the F-model is so far not related to such quality aspect that customers are led to think the F-designation must be tied to some very peculiar reason (which in reality it isn’t).

In some educational contexts, F stands for Fail. Probably not the intended message!

[DocT]

I do not know how accurate this is, but I keep hearing from luthiers and others that the F stands for Florentine, the shape and embellishments of and on the body. Wikipedia says: "At the very end of the 19th century, a new style, with a carved top and back construction inspired by violin family instruments began to supplant the European-style bowl-back instruments in the United States. This new style is credited to mandolins designed and built by Orville Gibson, a Kalamazoo, Michigan luthier who founded the "Gibson Mandolin-Guitar Manufacturing Co., Limited" in 1902. Gibson mandolins evolved into two basic styles: the Florentine or F-style, which has a decorative scroll near the neck, two points on the lower body and usually a scroll carved into the headstock; and the A-style, which is pear shaped, has no points and usually has a simpler headstock." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandolin
(but of course Wiki is not always accurate)

[j. condino]

.....And there are also Breedlove 'K' shapes to consider.

The K was for Kim, as in Kim Breedlove....

[Ivan Kelsall]

Re. Model 'T' Ford :- " Henry Ford conceived a series of cars between the founding of the company in 1903 and the introduction the Model T. Ford named his first car the Model A and proceeded through the alphabet up through the Model T, twenty models in all. Not all the models went into production."

So - The model 'T' Ford was simply one of an alphabetical series. Seems like ol' Henry & me run on the same lines !,

Orville Gibson himself never referred to the "F" style as a 'Florentine' model. He called it the 'Artist' model. I thought for many years that the "F" style referred to 'Florentine',until i began playing mandoln,joined the Cafe & got edificated !. However,Gibson did make a banjo named the 'Florentine' model in both Tenor & 5-String styles,
Ivan

[Ray(T)]

OK, how do you explain the logic in this sequence HS 748, HS 121, HS780, HS125, HS 801, HS1182 and HS 146. Hopefully I’ve got them in something like the right order!

I always thought that the Florentine banjo was really a playable piece of bling.

[Astro]

Hey Astro won't that dig be in Kalamazoo, MI?

No wonder we never found those missing link mando models...we've been digging in the wrong place !

[Zach Wilson]

The K was for Kim, as in Kim Breedlove....

Thank you! I've been wondering about that.

[Mark Seale]

The K was for Kim, as in Kim Breedlove....

Which makes slightly more sense than K, as in mandocello.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Ray - " ..how do you explain the logic in this sequence.." I don't !. However, the first 2 were originally the AVRO 748 & the military version,the AVRO 780. I had 45 years of good,solid employment out of A.V. Roe Co. etc. They could call their aircraft anything they wanted as far as i was concerned - work is work !. The aircraft designations are as bizzare as the Gibson instrument ones - but why !,
Ivan