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Thread: Chords

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Chords

    Not long after I joined the band I am now in, they wanted me to play bass. I had never played bass before. I soon discovered what you did - most others were already playing the full seventh and minor chords. All I really needed to do was provide a good steady 1 and 5 note with an occasional run for the chords and let the guitar and other guys worry about the rest of the notes in"fancy"chords. I expect 3 notes will be enough for most mandolin chords as a beginner, but striving to work up to 4.
    Last edited by Smyrna5; Dec-23-2018 at 8:55am.

  2. #27
    Registered User Bob Buckingham's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chords

    If you are playing bluegrass, four finger chords give the heartiest chop. Other wise your notes are window dressing on top what the guitar and bass are playing. True in any musical genre if applied correctly.

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  4. #28
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    Default Re: Chords

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    I love the sound of G at 0023 even with a chop sometimes, and especially in non-bluegrass stuff. I might use 0023, 4557, 7557, 0523 using two or three of those voices within the same song sometimes, but I agree the 0023 is favorite when it works because of that low bass and second octave G, great stuff.
    I agree some times the 0023 G is what I "hear" and what zxl',,,I think is needed at that time, but why limit myself to that shape. Maybe in the next measure a 2357 shape is needed. If I say I can't then I can't.

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  6. #29
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chords

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandoplumb View Post
    I agree some times the 0023 G is what I "hear" and what zxl',,,I think is needed at that time, but why limit myself to that shape. Maybe in the next measure a 2357 shape is needed. If I say I can't then I can't.
    I agree with everything you're saying here, Mandoplumb. I don't mean to give the impression that I don't use 7523 chop chord forms, because I do use the "standard" Bluegrass chop chord forms, mostly when I'm comping with chops in a Bluegrass jam (which is not very often, I'm not a dyed-in-the-wool grasser). Also if you look at all my other posts in this thread, I've more than once stated my belief that a person should learn all the chord voicings that he or she can stand over a musical lifetime - he or she shouldn't tell themselves "I can't ..." but rather should ask themselves "How can I ... ?" and practice, practice, practice if they want to accomplish anything, go for it. I don't think it's particularly helpful to berate a beginner for "using excuses," etc., or anyway, it's all in how you say it. You and I just have to disagree on the approach. Your approach might be more effective than mine in advising students, I can't say, but I can tell you that my approach is different. I'll encourage folk to play chords that are comfortable to them and learn to play them cleanly, clearly, and rhythmically. That is a good beginning. Over time, don't neglect to keep learning about how to find and build chords, keep learning new chord voicings, and don't give up. What you say is true, if a person says "I can't ..." and accepts that, the game is over.
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  7. #30

    Default Re: Chords

    I have only been playing a couple of weeks, maybe. I still find it hard to make these old fingers stretch to 3 finger chords and some 2 finger (Am) chords. But, I keep at it. It is getting easier, albeit slow.
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  9. #31
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chords

    OP asked specifically about using three string chords; we've strayed quite a bit from that original question. But in OP, it was said that making four string chords are too difficult for the poster. We have to assume that the bluegrass chop chords are what they mean, since hundreds of four string chords can be made using only two or three fingers!

    To the question of whether a person should learn the bluegrass chop chord, well, I think they should ... even though they could probably get by without it if they had to. I think most people can learn and train their fingers to do those chords. Maybe some never will due to extreme physical limitations (if Django Reinhardt were playing mandolin, he probably couldn't do it). Most people can do it, but it might take a very long time trying before they are able. That is to be expected.

    Anyway, here is some help for getting that done. A good tip is that when you practice, start with the pinky. If it is uncomfortable (probably will be) and doesn't sound right (probably won't) and you can't hold it long (probably can't), well, that's fine. Just keep trying it over the next few days or weeks of practice time. It'll come like magic one day if you keep trying.



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  11. #32
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    Default Re: Chords

    Second time I've read about starting with the pinkie...
    Ok, add it to the "list"



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  12. #33
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    Default Re: Chords

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl23 View Post
    Second time I've read about starting with the pinkie...
    Ok, add it to the "list"

    C
    Doesn't work for everyone, I guess. I watched that vid a while ago. While I can play the dreaded G 4 finger chop chord, I can't ye do it quickly. For me, its easier to plant my first two fingers first. Good news, is its getting easier.

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  14. #34
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    Default Re: Chords

    Mark I wasn't singling you out. It just seems that a lot of these posts are saying don't worry about using 4 finger chords you don't need them. Your posts could be taken either way. Yes a beginner should begin with the "easy" stuff but in my opinion he should never be told " that is hard, you can play without it, just forget about that" in my opinion that is telling him to accept I can't. I find it hard to believe that Jethroe say don't use 4note chords because one note is redundant. He never used a 7th or 9th chord? That quote has to be taken out of context.

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Chords

    I use a lot of harmonized melody lines , not basic 2 finger open string chords,

    but adding a 2nd tone suggesting a Major , minor relationship between the 2.


    I don't get out to Bluegrass festivals , that are spoken of often , here, had to do a lot of self teaching..






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  16. #36
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    Default Re: Chords

    Whoa! Just got around to Mark's Chris Thile clip above, and couldn't help but be impressed by his "chop" on the open G chord, where he cuts it short by muting with his fretting pinky. That sound, tonally & impact-wise, blends perfectly with his "properly" muted 4-string chords.

    I fell into that pinky-muting of open chords early on (as opposed to lifting the fretting fingers of closed chords) and, I suspect like many of us, came close to feeling guilty at my presumed cheating. So Mark: "Thanks!" on behalf of all of us who might have ever worried that we were, in fact, "cheating"!

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  18. #37

    Default Re: Chords

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    OP asked specifically about using three string chords; we've strayed quite a bit from that original question. But in OP, it was said that making four string chords are too difficult for the poster. We have to assume that the bluegrass chop chords are what they mean, since hundreds of four string chords can be made using only two or three fingers!
    And therein lies the error in this thread. Mandolincafe is bluegrass-centric and nearly everyone assumes people want to chop chop chop. I play swing, Gypsy jazz, and ragtime, and never chop chop chop. I get by with 3-note (6-string) chords for everything but G, Gm, Abm, Am, Bbm, and Bm. And the 4-note G that I play is 0023, not a chop chord. Occasionally I will play D as 2002 when I want the open strings ringing. Oh yeah, and C as 0230.

    Too silly.

    OP should consider enrolling in one of Matt Flinner's online classes. Matt covers the gamut of music styles including bluegrass, swing, rock, old time, blues, fiddle tunes and etc. Matt teaches the 3-note chords in addition to 4-note chords, and chop chords. The style of music would then dictate the types of chord forms to learn. Maybe, like me, the OP would get tired of bluegrass after 3 or 4 songs. But swing, I could swing all day long.

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  19. #38
    formerly Philphool Phil Goodson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chords

    I'm just amazed at all this "I can't do that" sort of talk on this forum. Do folks really think that everything worth doing should be accomplished within a few weeks?

    Why not have at least 3 ways to play every chord that you commonly use or need? Gives you options of going to the chord shape that either sounds best or is easiest to go to in the specific chord progression occurring at that moment.

    Some of you folks just underestimate your abilities. Hang in there. Practice the hard stuff for a few minutes every day or so. You may be surprised in a few months that suddenly a miracle happened and your fingers can easily go to a place that was previously "impossible". BE OPTIMISTIC! Why NOT???

    As someone who started mandolin in his mid 50s, I can say that it can turn out better than you expected!

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  21. #39
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    Default Re: Chords

    Teak, yes I play bluegrass but having the 4finger chord in your tool box is not a bluegrass thing although it is used more in bluegrass. My question is how would being able to use a 4note or four finger chord hurt your playing? If you needed or wanted the sound of a 4 finger chord and couldn't do it how would that hurt your playing? I've never learned too much about the mandolin or anything else I use and/or enjoy.

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  23. #40

    Default Re: Chords

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandoplumb View Post
    Teak, yes I play bluegrass but having the 4finger chord in your tool box is not a bluegrass thing although it is used more in bluegrass. My question is how would being able to use a 4note or four finger chord hurt your playing? If you needed or wanted the sound of a 4 finger chord and couldn't do it how would that hurt your playing? I've never learned too much about the mandolin or anything else I use and/or enjoy.
    A 4-note chord doesn't hurt one's playing except in a couple of cases.

    First, that high E string doesn't really sound that good when backing a vocalist.

    Second, one can shift between 3-note chords faster than 4-note chords especially if one has to reach that pinkie a great distance to get that 4th note. The pinkie is thus free to add an embellishment to one of the string pairs in the 3-note chord.

    I work on my pinkie all of the time with the four finger closed position playing, but find the 3-note chords are nice for eliminating the pinkie when going through rapid chord changes. Many swing and jazz tunes change chord on every beat.

    In my trio, the bass and piano cover the root quite well, so I often use 3-note chords that skip the root. That allows for covering the b5 or 6 or 9 in those nice-sounding jazz chords.

    Just don't assume that everybody, especially new learners, want to play bluegrass chop chords. A beginner is better off learning open string chords and Jethro's 3-note chords to start out. I now that I was back in the late 1970s.
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  24. #41
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    Default Re: Chords

    Even though I can play the "chop" chords I find for most of the music I play (swing, pop country bg etc) I find the 3 string chords work best. The fact of having the pinky free to modify the chord by adding and removing the 2 or 4 (suspend) and/or 6ths 7ths, 9ths lets me change the voicing of the chords very easily depending on the shape I'm using.
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    Default Re: Chords

    A suggestion to practice (rather than for learning from scratch) holding and chopping to the 4-finger and 3-finger chop chords—or really, any chords, if you are interested in playing bluegrass: Homespun has a terrific set of three bluegrass jamming videos by Pete Wernick and friends. They increase in speed and complexity, so the first in the series is blissfully SLOWWW and starts out with just 2-chord songs, the next gets somewhat faster, and the third one goes at pretty much jam tempo. Each video has a bunch of standard bluegrass songs played by a full bluegrass band. Each includes a booklet with chord chords and lyrics for all the songs. The videos won’t teach you how to form the chords, but they sure give you great practice playing with them in a (close to) actual jam setting. I’ve had a lot of fun playing with them, and they really got me playing that big chop chord in just a few sessions. Of course, there’s no substitution for getting out to a real jam, but using these videos sure comes close, and it has the advantage that you can learn at a slow tempo and loop the tunes over and over without making your jamming buddies sick of you.

  26. #43
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    I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. Just to clarify my position, I disagree that you can change 3note chords faster than 4note unless you have to put down one finger at a time in which case you need to practice your 4 note chords. Four note chords DO NOT have to be bluegrass chop chords, you even spoke of using a 3 note and having the pinkie finger to add a note, after that what do you have except a four note chord. But the main thing is the attitude I don't need to know that so I won't learn. I've never learned too much on any subject, just the opposite things I don't know seem to hinder me.

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  28. #44
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    Default Re: Chords

    Yes, all due to respect to others' opinions and preferences, but (1) "high E string doesn't really sound that good when backing a vocalist" strikes me as 100% opinion rather than fact. I'm not a bluegrass player either, but I play notes chording on the E string all the time in vocal tunes. Some passages sound best with them. Again, no ill will, but I differ greatly with your assessment. (2) "one can shift between 3-note chords faster than 4-note chords especially if one has to reach that pinkie a great distance to get that 4th note" again sounds like pure opinion, I've seen lightning fast chord changes by people playing bluegrass using the stretch chords - and in my own experience once a chord shape becomes second nature, it's no problem to grab the chord in an instant no matter its shape.

    There are a couple of principles I like to keep in mind:

    (1) No chord whatsoever is an easy chord to learn. A new beginner with no experience will have trouble properly playing any chord at all in a way that they get a clean sound and can change chords in correct time! I think long time players and teachers can have a tendency to forget that. Fifty-some-odd years ago, when I first picked up guitar, it was difficult learning my first three chords, getting them to sound right, then singing a song in time and making the changes! It's pretty difficult for most everyone. After a while, it became second nature.

    (2) All chords can be learned in a similar manner. Learning new chords that your fingers can't do yet is just as difficult, and generally no more difficult, than learning those first chords. It requires dedication and practice. If you keep trying at it, one day it becomes second nature. This has been my experience over a lifetime. So if there is no severe physical limitation of the individual, learning new chords and being fast with them is just a thing to do. If you want to be able to do it, then don't avoid practicing it.

    (3) Finally, the only difficult chord for you is the one you haven't learned yet well enough to make it second nature.
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  30. #45
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    Default Re: Chords

    I didn't say I use my pinky to change from a 3 finger chord to a 4 finger chord. I very seldom use the E strings, I use mainly Jethro chords and modify the chord to another voice sus, 6th, 7th etc using the pinky to substitute root , 3rd 5th etc.
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  31. #46

    Default Re: Chords

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    Jethro of course is right, that applies to chords that are not extended chords, like 7 chords (ex. G7, A7, C7, etc.)
    I use a three finger shape for my 7ths most of the time. C7 is 3-2-3-x. It is easy to play, moveable, and a nice thick voicing. There is no 5 in the chord, but the 5 is not needed and often dropped.

  32. #47
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chords

    Quote Originally Posted by David L View Post
    I use a three finger shape for my 7ths most of the time. C7 is 3-2-3-x. It is easy to play, moveable, and a nice thick voicing. There is no 5 in the chord, but the 5 is not needed and often dropped.
    David, yes indeed sir, one of my earlier posts states that my favorite 7th chords are partial chords, too. Like 323x for C7 and like 435x for G7 and 436x G+5

    What you quoted from me above has nothing to do with that - OP says Jethro wrote that when you play four strings, you are doubling one note. That applies to simple triads, not extended chords. You are not the first in this thread to have mentioned that extended chords don't need all the notes. That was not my point, and I didn't deal with extended chords in that first post so as to not muddy the water for the OP - too late at this stage of course.

    You can play extended chords on four strings without doubling a note. OTOH you cannot play a simple major or minor triad chord on four strings without doubling a note. That was my point.
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  33. #48
    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chords

    Jethro was not a bluegrass player and was quoted as saying he’d spent 30 years trying to stop people from playing the G chop chord shape. While it’s traditional to use in BG, many players make the shape and only play the 2 ‘bass’ strings.

    There are 6 standard inversions of triads on the mandolin and many triads with multiple names. The choice of chord shape is often a genre, taste or voice leading question, in addition to technical factors, ie, I can’t reach that shape. (I can make the 4 finger chop chord some major 7th shapes are beyond me.

    And 357 is a good 7th shape (rootless C7th).

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  35. #49
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    Default Re: Chords

    Another interesting 7th shape on the mandolin is the diagonal shape that omits the root and the 5th, example, G7 would be 4321. Can't get much simpler than that, and since you're just repeating the 3rd and the b7 twice, you can play a double stop version on any two adjacent strings, or a three string version, or all four strings, you still get the passing chord. Easily transposed to any key up and down the neck.
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  36. #50
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    Default Re: Chords

    Quote Originally Posted by Teak View Post
    And therein lies the error in this thread. Mandolincafe is bluegrass-centric and nearly everyone assumes people want to chop chop chop. I play swing, Gypsy jazz, and ragtime, and never chop chop chop.
    I always wonder why BG players call a simple "backbeat" strum pattern "chop" chords.

    "Mandolincafe is bluegrass-centric"...ya think?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    Yes, all due to respect to others' opinions and preferences, but (1) "high E string doesn't really sound that good when backing a vocalist" strikes me as 100% opinion rather than fact.
    I would agree that this is an opinion and not a fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill McCall View Post
    Jethro was not a bluegrass player and was quoted as saying he’d spent 30 years trying to stop people from playing the G chop chord shape.
    lol

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