Modes - Practicing to Cement Their Sound in Your Head

[Keith Witty]

In practicing basic modal "shapes" on the fretboard, would you think it is wiser to play from root to the end of the mode (Say, a D-Dorian, C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D) or play from (in example scale) D to D but within the confines of C-Major?

Does this question even make sense?

[Mark Gunter]

Wow, you'd need a wise person to give you any useful opinion on which is wisest ... but "fools rush in", they say, so here goes:

I think that in the beginning, a person would do well to play the Dorian scale you've exemplified by playing form D to D, because this will help to cement the unique sound of the intervals of the Dorian mode in your mind. Later, you can practice partial scales, or scales starting on root of the major from which the scale derives, or any other direction you want to go in to help your music.

BTW, in my foolishness, "D" is the root of that Dorian scale, not "C" -- "C" would be the root of the major scale from which that Dorian scale is derived.

[Carl23]

I recommend playing all modes within the same scale.

If you are reading, the best option would be C as the changed notes would be obvious.
I would not try to think of the equivalent major scale, i think that only confuses things.

If you are playing jazz, you might want to associate the modes with chords

see: http://www2.siba.fi/muste1/index.php?id=79&la=en

Best link I could find on a quick search. there might be a page that is better geared to your learning style, but look up "which modes go with which chords"

Play the chord a bit to get it in your ear, then work on the scale.

I would particularly look at the half steps, as they usually define the sound of the mode.

If you are looking to classical modes, I would listen to music of the renaissance era, but be sure to be clear on which mode is being used. It is not always obvious.

in any case, listen listen listen to get the 'feel' of the mode. Since all of the scale "shapes" are the same, how you hear them will become more important.

my 2c

C

[JeffD]

I recommend playing all modes within the same scale.

If you are reading, the best option would be C as the changed notes would be obvious.
I would not try to think of the equivalent major scale, i think that only confuses things.

This is for me the best way to do it. Maybe the only way. Knowing the fact that one can reproduce the modes by starting a known scale on a different note, D - D for example, while it is interesting in a hey wow kind of way, helps me not at all get the feel of the mode.

YMMV of course.

[mandocrucian]

Modes Made Easy

[Mark Gunter]

Modes Made Easy

Last paragraph:

How to practice modes? Take a song, or fiddle tune, and play it in the various modes, altering the appropriate notes. Use a tune like "Whiskey Before Breakfast" or "Arkansas Traveler" which are normally played in D major, and play them in each of the various modes, using D/Dm as the root tonality. Of course, when you do this, the normal chord progressions don't always work, and if you want decent backup, certain chords will need to be changed to fit the new melody notes.

I like that idea. I've been studying and playing with an instructor recently, and we do this for fun sometimes; last week we were playing around with Salt Creek altering the melody with Dorian and Aolian modes. You can get some pretty cool variations on traditional fiddle tunes that way.

[Keith Witty]

I recommend playing all modes within the same scale.

I would not try to think of the equivalent major scale, i think that only confuses things.

C

This has been great advice. Helped out a ton.

[JonZ]

If you have practiced the major scale, you have also practiced its modes. It is a shape that you have learned to navigate. After that, it’s all about context. So, practice using modes in context over a tune, or part of a tune, that you want to play. Without context, a scale and its modes sound identical to each other.

[Keith Witty]

If you have practiced the major scale, you have also practiced its modes. It is a shape that you have learned to navigate. After that, it’s all about context. So, practice using modes in context over a tune, or part of a tune, that you want to play. Without context, they sound identical.

I know that's true, but it has never felt that simple to me. Employing them and really knowing what exactly I am doing and the sound I am going for with a certain mode is a new process.

[JonZ]

I know that's true, but it has never felt that simple to me. Employing them and really knowing what exactly I am doing and the sound I am going for with a certain mode is a new process.

You can know intuitively what sounds right. But, if you want to understand what you know, focus on the chord tones in the tunes you are using the mode over. Modes sound “right” when they emphasize the chord tones you are playing over.

[Carl23]

This has been great advice. Helped out a ton.

Thanks... I learned from experience... did it the other way for months before figuring this out.
:-)

C

[Keith Witty]

Thanks... I learned from experience... did it the other way for months before figuring this out.
:-)

C

Very similar to some advice I got from an old bandmate I texted about this yesterday. He foofoo'd on anything else and he's the best musician I've ever met, multiple degrees, etc. You're in good company!

[Pete Martin]

I would not try to think of the equivalent major scale, i think that only confuses things.

If you are playing jazz, you might want to associate the modes with chords

Funny, it works best for me when I dont think mode and just think the major scale that mode is derived from, and play appropriate sounds from the scale.

I used to think modes all the time for each chord, but my playing got a lot better and freer when I just started to think the home major scale. I found I could play more melodically over longer chord sequences. When I thought individual modes, I tended to play to fit each individual chord. My lines that way were short and choppy to my ear. Now they flow more over a longer period.

I bet there are great players who do it each way. We all look things in ways that makes sense to us. I dont mean to downplay Carls method in the slightest, but to point out there can be many approaches to solve a problem. Try a number of different things then use the one YOU find works best for YOU.

[Carl23]

In a way you went directly to the goal. It's all about what you hear. And can you reproduce what you hear.

As a theorist and educator, my bias is to break things down to theoretical pieces. Learn how the pieces go together (get them 'in your ear') then I usually say to forget the theory and just play.

All roads lead to Rome.

C

[JonZ]

As an educator, don’t become complacent. Some roads are better than others.

[Carl23]

As an educator, don’t become complacent. Some roads are better than others.

Very true. one of the most challenging and rewarding things about teaching is having to have a bag of 1 million and 1 ways of doing things, and find out which one works for each individual student.

Never expect to be perfect at it, but if you keep trying your students will teach you what works.

C

[JonZ]

Very true. one of the most challenging and rewarding things about teaching is having to have a bag of 1 million and 1 ways of doing things, and find out which one works for each individual student.

Never expect to be perfect at it, but if you keep trying your students will teach you what works.

C

When I was a new teacher, I learned a lot from the feedback my students gave me. But after a while, you get a handle on what works. If you focus on proven principles, it reduces the number of choices dramatically.

I taught many subjects to many students with a variety of learning disabilities, using the same techniques. It isn’t that complicated.

[Carl23]

JonZ,
I was thinking more about how to get individual students to do the "proven principles".

An example, for some students, I would start by teaching them the 'wrong' way. Always with letting them know it was "wrong" and them move them by increments to the "correct" way. A rather interesting discovery.

There was a particular way of getting a slap on a djembe that was commenly taught in my area. Rather difficult to correct because it "works" in the short term, but sets people up for joint problems down the road.

C

[mandos&turtles]

Idk if this is helpful or not but I've been working on modes lately as well. An exercise I've been doing is to pick a major key and run through all of the scales/modes. So if I start with the G major/ionian then A dorian, then B phrygian, then C lydian, and so it. Once you can run through all the mode scales quickly it sounds pretty cool.

[mandocrucian]

If you really want to cement the sounds of the various modes in your head, you should cycle through them using the same root note:

D major > D Lydian (#4) > D Mixolydian (b7)
D dorian (m3 M6 m7) > D minor (Aeolian b3, m6, m7) > D Phrygian (m2, m3, m6 m7)

Shifting back and forth between D major or D minor to various modes will reinforce the particular sound of the "modes" in comparison to/with Major and/or Natural Minor (Aeolian).

Better yet, play some tune(s) you know, like "Whiskey Before Breakfast" and then play the tune adjusting the appropriate scale degrees to put in the various modes. (For the tune in D Lydian, play G# notes in place of every G note) This will put the sound and particular quality(ies) of the modes into your noggin faster and deeper than playing them up and down like "scales".

Niles H

The old historical modes are much more complicated as these predate 12-tone equal temperament. Because of the particular tuning systems (just, meantone, etc.) a C major scale sounds different than a D major scale, or an A major scale. Which means that the various modes are slightly different in intonation for every Major scale that they were generated from. If you want to know/hear what a non-tempered tuning/intonation system sounds like, put on a highland bagpipe record, (for one example.)

[JonZ]

JonZ,
I was thinking more about how to get individual students to do the "proven principles".

An example, for some students, I would start by teaching them the 'wrong' way. Always with letting them know it was "wrong" and them move them by increments to the "correct" way. A rather interesting discovery.

There was a particular way of getting a slap on a djembe that was commenly taught in my area. Rather difficult to correct because it "works" in the short term, but sets people up for joint problems down the road.

C

I wasn’t referring to the proven principles that you are trying to teach, but rather the proven principles of teaching.

I trained as a teacher, and have observed dozens of teachers. The ones who are most effective have similar skill sets. The point I was trying to make was that understanding teaching principles is more important than understanding your student. Granted, you want to align with the student’s goals, but, once those goals are established, the same principles will move anyone along.

For example, research has shown that teacher feedback after several attempts is more effective than teacher feedback after each attempt. So, you can take two different roads, and they will lead to the same destination, but one is better than the other.

Good teachers teach well because they have mastered teaching skills. That’s why I objected to the “all roads” comment.

[bigskygirl]

I want to be able to improvise so I practice scales - regular and pentatonic, modes, arpeggios, etc, etc. I found that what was said in #8 and #13 most helpful for me.

When I just practiced scales and modes on their own it didn’t really cement the sound or purpose - but I did learn the fretboard...so when I would try them out in tunes it began to make more sense.

I started with tunes I really knew and would just wing it for awhile, sometimes it sounded pretty good...others not so much. After a while it began to sound more melodic rather than mechanical.

[Carl23]

I wasn’t referring to the proven principles that you are trying to teach, but rather the proven principles of teaching.

I trained as a teacher, and have observed dozens of teachers. The ones who are most effective have similar skill sets. The point I was trying to make was that understanding teaching principles is more important than understanding your student. Granted, you want to align with the student’s goals, but, once those goals are established, the same principles will move anyone along.

For example, research has shown that teacher feedback after several attempts is more effective than teacher feedback after each attempt. So, you can take two different roads, and they will lead to the same destination, but one is better than the other.

Good teachers teach well because they have mastered teaching skills. That’s why I objected to the “all roads” comment.

I see what you mean now. All roads only work if you actually know what a road 'is'. Yes I agree. :-)

[JonZ]

I see what you mean now. All roads only work if you actually know what a road 'is'. Yes I agree. :-)

Umm. No.

[Bill Findley]

“For example, research has shown that teacher feedback after several attempts is more effective than teacher feedback after each attempt.”

Absurd. How many attempts at writing an essay should I give my students whom we classify as “Basic Writers” in my community college classes before I give them feedback? I should say nothing until their, what, third or fourth attempt?