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Thread: Left Wrist Placement

  1. #26
    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Left Wrist Placement

    Let’s not forget that fiddles have only a 13” scale. It’s just easier for them, but the difficulty shouldn’t deter us.
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  2. #27
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Left Wrist Placement

    Something to think about - instead of reaching with the pinkie, put the pinkie where you want it and place the rest of your hand as needed. It is wierd but the reach from the pinkie to the index finger that the reach from the index finger to the pinkie. The hand re-apportions the interdactyl spacing. Or something.

    Another "trick" when playing single notes. Make the stretch with your ring finger, i.e. deploy the ring finger one fret below where the pinkie is to land, on the same string.
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  3. #28
    Registered User Carl23's Avatar
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    Default Re: Left Wrist Placement

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    Another "trick" when playing single notes. Make the stretch with your ring finger, i.e. deploy the ring finger one fret below where the pinkie is to land, on the same string.
    First part I get and will try. Can you explain this quoted part? I'm not sure I understand the "ring finger one fret below where the pink is to land"...?
    How does that help the pinkie?

    C
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  4. #29
    Registered User Carl23's Avatar
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    Default Re: Left Wrist Placement

    Quote Originally Posted by foldedpath View Post
    Use of the pinky is more of a choice when you move up the neck in closed positions.

    In first position with open strings, it's essential to hit the high B note on the E course with your pinky, while remaining in first position. That's the foundation of "fiddle tune" playing in OldTime, Irish, and Scottish traditional tunes. It's what the fiddlers do, and they worked out these techniques long before mandolins came around.
    True, only way to get the B without breaking position.
    How do they do octaves/unisons?... particularly in relation to the open strings. (A and E in particular for unisons)
    I don't see any way to do octave Es without breaking position (however often that comes up.)

    C
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  5. #30
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Left Wrist Placement

    I think I'm having trouble following your question there, playing octave Es in 1st position = x27x index on D course 2nd fret, pinky on A course 7th fret.

    Octave As in first position, either 27xx or xx05
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  6. #31
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Left Wrist Placement

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl23 View Post
    ... I had something I was working on that required moving from 5th postion to 1st (5 fretts... not sure if positions are measured the same here as on guitars)
    The answer to that is no, not the same. On guitar we generally assign, as a rule of thumb, one fret per finger.

    On mandolin, we generally assign, as a rule of thumb, two frets per finger.

    1st position index covers 1 & 2, middle covers 3 & 4, ring covers 5 & 6, pinky covers 7 & 8

    1st position index starts on 1
    2nd position index starts on 3
    3rd position index starts on 5
    4th position index starts on 7
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  7. #32

    Default Re: Left Wrist Placement

    I like the second video. I've made the move and focusing on the wrist position. Interestingly, it's making run a little easier. Woohoo!! Thank you for sharing this.

  8. #33

    Default Re: Left Wrist Placement

    Thank you. I play fiddle, so I think I lean more to this.

  9. #34

    Default Re: Left Wrist Placement

    Interesting that you would say that. I tend to hold my Loar LM-520VS a little different from my Silver Angel. So, maybe part of the preference is the instrument you happen to play.

  10. #35

    Default Re: Left Wrist Placement

    Makes sense the best way to play as an individual is the position that let's you keep playing the longest. :-)

  11. #36

    Default Re: Left Wrist Placement

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    The good thing is that there is absolutely no way to avoid wishing you had started this differently. The problems don't appear immediately, and no matter who you are some comfortable habit is limiting you.
    That is an interesting and true statement! I'm going to try and remember this on my journey. Unlearning a bad habit is so much harder than just learning the right way. With that said, when the standard doesn't work, or creates and ergonomic issue, change what is needed. Mostly what you have already said.

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  13. #37

    Default Re: Left Wrist Placement

    Yes, this. This seems to feel the best for me, but then again...I fiddled first.

  14. #38

    Default Re: Left Wrist Placement

    Thank you. Great information here. I do think the wrist moves depending on what is being played. I just noticed some individuals wrist action look different during basic chords and was curious. I'm knew so I thought I should focus on a standard if there was one. Do you practice with a strap during practice? Even Sitting down? I heard someone speak to that and it seemed to make sense.

  15. #39

    Default Re: Left Wrist Placement

    Absolutely. Hence the "all sound great" comment. I love a good standard, and since I'm new, I'd like to try the standard. I agree with the play comfortably. Because that's where it's fun.

  16. #40

    Default Re: Left Wrist Placement

    Thank you. That's great info. I will work on it.

  17. #41

    Default Re: Left Wrist Placement

    Hello, and thank you for sharing. I popped over quickly and I think this and other videos you have will be very helpful! :-)

  18. #42
    Registered User Carl23's Avatar
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    Default Re: Left Wrist Placement

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    1st position index starts on 1
    2nd position index starts on 3
    3rd position index starts on 5
    4th position index starts on 7
    That makes total sense, like the 2 fret 1 finger rule for scales etc.

    So I should have said 3rd position to 1st.

    Question, would you ever start with index on 6? I could imagine that some scales would be easier that way... like Ab?

    C
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    Hey... I have a blog here!
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  19. #43
    Registered User Carl23's Avatar
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    Default Re: Left Wrist Placement

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    I think I'm having trouble following your question there, playing octave Es in 1st position = x27x index on D course 2nd fret, pinky on A course 7th fret.

    Octave As in first position, either 27xx or xx05
    Can't do in 1st position, but 4th positon works (hope I got the position thing right) :-)


    C
    "The Loar" LM-520
    Ludwig & Ludwig 8-370X Marimba
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    Hand made profesional djembes from Guinea and Maili West Africa
    and toys... lots and lots of toys.

    Hey... I have a blog here!
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    Feel free to stop on by and let me know what you think!

  20. #44
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Left Wrist Placement

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl23 View Post
    That makes total sense, like the 2 fret 1 finger rule for scales etc.

    So I should have said 3rd position to 1st.

    Question, would you ever start with index on 6? I could imagine that some scales would be easier that way... like Ab?

    C
    Hey Carl, when I wrote "starts on x fret" I'm not talking about where you start playing ... I mean that's where the "position" starts. I was talking about how you describe hand position on mandolin. It doesn't matter where you start a scale or melody, or which finger you use to start a melody. If you were to start a scale with index finger at 6, you would be in 3rd position (since third position index finger covers 5 & 6).

    That's just a way of being able to communicate about hand positions, it's not some concrete rule for where or how you play your mandolin. I was having trouble understanding what you meant by writing,
    How do they do octaves/unisons?... particularly in relation to the open strings. (A and E in particular for unisons)
    I don't see any way to do octave Es without breaking position (however often that comes up.)
    I thought maybe my inability to follow your question might be because of confusion about how you interpret "breaking position" - anyway, that's why I referred to your earlier post with an explanation, so at least we can be on the same page about what "position" means.
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  21. #45
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Left Wrist Placement

    To be clear what I mean by "position", I'll use 3rd position as an example.

    In 3rd position:

    Index: frets 5 & 6
    Middle: frets 7 & 8
    Ring: frets 9 & 10
    Pinky: frets 11 & 12

    So if you start for example a scale playing with ring finger starting on fret 10 at the F note, you are playing in 3rd position.
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  22. #46
    Registered User Louise NM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Left Wrist Placement

    Carl, the first thing I noticed was, as JeffD said, the hyperextended little finger. Simply put, that's a great way to get hurt.

    You might want to experiment with a straighter wrist and bringing your thumb up from underneath the neck to the side of it. When you go up to your fourth finger do you keep all the others down? That increases the reach, and keeps you from being able to pivot your hand a bit to reach.

  23. #47
    Registered User Carl23's Avatar
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    Default Re: Left Wrist Placement

    Louise,

    Working on the pinky thing. had a bit of improvement today. Placing the pinky first then working back (was a far reach for a close interval) I have a very weak last joint on that finger, which causes a lot of problems when trying to come "down" on a string, rather than at an angle.

    Mostly it's a control issue that I am working on with my teacher.

    One thing I've found is that when I use the traditional mandolin grip (thumb up the side) I can not play the e string with any fluidity.
    I'm playing more like a cello grip (a big reason for the mandolin angle) My wrist is usually flatter than the photo implies as it was a quick snap while at work.

    Keeping the wrist flat is something that I work on constantly, which doesn't seem to be much different than keeping your wrist straight with traditional grip. I actually could never figure out how to have the wrist straight with traditional grip and the mando parallel to the ground?

    C
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    Hey... I have a blog here!
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  24. #48
    Registered User Louise NM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Left Wrist Placement

    Why do you want the mandolin parallel to the ground?

    Most folks have the headstock end higher, some by quite a lot. A or F style, bowl back or not, standing or sitting, strap or no strap—all these variables affect the angle, of course, but if you look at photos and video, everyone from Bill Monroe to Avi Avital has it angled up.

    [EDIT] Looking at your p.1 pix, you have it angled way, way up. Which part of it are you saying is parallel to the ground?

    It's all hard to describe, everyone's physique is different, and each person has to find the best solution for themselves, but the closer we can all keep it to standard, the better off we'll be.

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  26. #49
    Registered User Carl23's Avatar
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    Default Re: Left Wrist Placement

    Quote Originally Posted by Louise NM View Post
    Why do you want the mandolin parallel to the ground?

    Most folks have the headstock end higher, some by quite a lot. A or F style, bowl back or not, standing or sitting, strap or no strap—all these variables affect the angle, of course, but if you look at photos and video, everyone from Bill Monroe to Avi Avital has it angled up.

    [EDIT] Looking at your p.1 pix, you have it angled way, way up. Which part of it are you saying is parallel to the ground?

    It's all hard to describe, everyone's physique is different, and each person has to find the best solution for themselves, but the closer we can all keep it to standard, the better off we'll be.
    I guess "parrallel" is a bit extream. As you can see in the photo I have a very steep angle.
    I was not refering to my chosen position as parallel, just what I think traditional playing looks.
    I tend to see players somewhere between 5 and 15 degree tilts (something like that, I didn't take out a protractor). As I try to lower the mando closer to "parrallel" the harder it gets to play, even with the traditional grip.

    I've seen a couple of things online that makes me think this might have to do with the size of my hands, and the fact that it is difficult for me to use my fingers when in such a closed postion as the traditional grip. (mostly on the e string)

    C
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    Ludwig & Ludwig 8-370X Marimba
    Slingerland Modified Drumset
    Hand made profesional djembes from Guinea and Maili West Africa
    and toys... lots and lots of toys.

    Hey... I have a blog here!
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    Feel free to stop on by and let me know what you think!

  27. #50
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    Default Re: Left Wrist Placement

    I'm a bit confused by your use of the word "grip". In my approach, which I believe is the classical one, I simply bring my fretting hand to the instrument - I don't hold or support the neck. I wonder why that doesn't come naturally to you. Seems to me that you have to constantly arch your wrist inwards, whereas I only do that on barre chords.

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