How do they do frets at big factories?

[SincereCorgi]

I'm curious about this, since I've been trying to practice doing fret-levels on junkers- how do they do fretwork at big factories? Is it very automated? Is there such a thing as 'pre-crowned' fretwire?

I find it very hard to believe that there are a few dozen people sweating it out with crowning files and Sharpie markers and sandpaper, but even mass-produced guitars seem to me to be pretty good considering how many things you can screw up when doing fretwork.

[HoGo]

I'm curious about this, since I've been trying to practice doing fret-levels on junkers- how do they do fretwork at big factories? Is it very automated? Is there such a thing as 'pre-crowned' fretwire?

I find it very hard to believe that there are a few dozen people sweating it out with crowning files and Sharpie markers and sandpaper, but even mass-produced guitars seem to me to be pretty good considering how many things you can screw up when doing fretwork.

All fretwire is pre-crowned. When you fret new perfectly planed (sanded) fingerboard with new slots the frets are very close to perfectly level as well, if properly seated (and double checked any high frets looking against light) so final crown "sanding" takes minimal amount of material (barely touches the high spots with 400-600 grit) and final polishing with micromesh or buffing wheel is all it takes to get them polished again. SImple task compared to working on old worn boards with slots damaged by several refrets...

[rcc56]

Most factory fret jobs are not very accurate. Some new instruments have frets that are uneven enough to cause problems. Many have the frets ground too low for optimal playing comfort.

[sblock]

Most factory fret jobs are not very accurate. Some new instruments have frets that are uneven enough to cause problems. Many have the frets ground too low for optimal playing comfort.

Offering up such broad generalities may be unwarranted in this day and age. The inaccuracies of which you write might have once been true of some (not all) large factories in China, Korea, or Japan. But no longer. And it is equally true, historically, that the gang saw used by Gibson in the first half of the 20th century for making its mandolins developed difficulties and turned out a large number of fretboards with serious intonation problems. This issue is well documented.

Many of the newest large factories are turning out some highly accurate fretboards these days, particularly for mandolins in the 'medium' price range (say, $500 on up). The latest generations of instruments from Kentucky, Eastman, Loar, Northfield, Weber, Gibson, etc. don't tend to come with any serious fretboard issues, on the whole. I have not come across any of these whose frets were "ground too low" for playing comfort, either. This might be happening for some cheap instruments that cost under $500, for all I know, like no-names, Rogues, Ibanez, Savannah, Washburn etc., but it's quite rare to see among the medium-priced instruments and on up.

Mediocre fret jobs and bad fretboards might have been commonplace 20 years ago, but the standards have been raised and times sure have changed! In fact, a factory robot (or CNC-type device) can locate frets more accurately these days than most human luthiers!

And for the ultimate in accurate fretboards, NOTHING beats a robotic machine like the PLEK device (see http://www.gibson.com/News-Lifestyle...k-is-PLEK.aspx. Or see http://www.plek.com/en_US/technology...cess/the-scan/ )

This is reminiscent of the legend of John Henry, steel-driving man. In the familiar song, John Henry just (barely!) manages to beat out the steam-driven machine with a handheld hammer and steel rod. He was treated as some kind of a folk hero. But remember that, as extraordinary as he was, the contest killed him. It was a Pyrrhic victory. Today, machines do his job faster and better.

In the 21st century, factory fret jobs, done with the right machines, have the potential to do better than -- not merely as well as -- any human luthier.

For now, though, only a human can get the wooden body of the mandolin to sound as good as the best. So skilled luthiers would seem to be pretty safe, at least for the foreseeable future. That said, even some of the best luthiers alive use pattern carvers or CNC machines to rough out most of the carving work (e.g., Gilchrist, Dudenbostel). So, who knows how things will be in 20-30 years?

[Charles E.]

Here is a video from Gibson a few years ago.......

[Charles E.]

This is how they do it at Taylor Guitars, frets come in at 1:40......

[Jeff Mando]

Here is a video from Gibson a few years ago.......

Was that out of focus? Or do I need to see my eye doctor?

[Jeff Mando]

This is how they do it at Taylor Guitars, frets come in at 1:40......

Amazing how little hand work is required.....kind of disappointing, IMHO.

[mirwa]

And for the ultimate in accurate fretboards, NOTHING beats a robotic machine like the PLEK device (see http://www.gibson.com/News-Lifestyle...k-is-PLEK.aspx. Or see http://www.plek.com/en_US/technology...cess/the-scan/ )

Plek, whilst great, cannot do banjos, mandos, uke’s, sitar’s and so forth.

If it’s a plain guitar with standard frets, that is not true temp frets or compensated frets or multi scale frets, then yes the plek machine valued at 130,000 dollars can level frets fractionally better than what the human hand can do.

I would concur with rcc, most fretwork leaving factories is pretty average to say the least

Steve

[pops1]

I have done fret levels on many new Loar, MK and similar instruments. They are not bad like the real cheap stuff, but they are not flat enough to have a nice action. I am an action snob.

[sblock]

Yes, it is quite true that PLEK was designed for guitars, not banjos, mandolins, etc. (Guitars are where the money is, folks!) I cited it as an example of how, under certain circumstances, a computerized machine can do a better job of getting a instrument's fretboard properly trimmed under tension than a human. It supports the point that humans are not necessarily better at certain tasks, and more importantly, that large factories are not churning out bad fretboards these days, for the most part. In fact, they have gotten hugely better over the past few decades, in large part due to the improved automation of tasks. And they continue to improve. Also, the vast majority of carved instruments these days, especially mandolins, are rough-carved by machines, not by humans. And Gibson had been using (analog) pattern carvers to rough-carve mandolin tops and bottoms long before the advent of the computer, and CNC machines, which do the job more precisely. Automated work is not necessarily inferior work. In some cases, it's better.

In particular, fret slots cut by CNC machines tend to be more accurately placed than those cut by humans.

[sunburst]

I would concur with rcc, most fretwork leaving factories is pretty average to say the least.

+1
Furthermore, the guys in the Martin repair shop told me they often have to follow the Plek machines and fix the frets.
I have to fix frets on all sorts of instruments that were not done very well to begin with. Sometimes the name on the peghead is much better know than my name (and able to get the builder quite a bit more money than my name also). Big factories in particular don't have time to remedy all the various problems that can show up in fret work. After over 30 years of fretting, problems still show up that I've never seen before.

[j. condino]

"And Gibson had been using (analog) pattern carvers to rough-carve mandolin tops and bottoms long before the advent of the computer, and CNC machines, which do the job more precisely. "

Yup; even L. Loar signed F5s were first pattern carved before the ten minutes of final hand voicing.......

I always get a huge laugh listening to folks who have never worked a factory job wax poetic mysticism about a room full of ancient old men wearing John Lennon glasses and Geppeto shoes hand carving every single piece like a scene out of The Red Violin....

I made seven dollars an hour building three mandolins a day before lunch break that the company later sold for approx. $3000 each while getting verbally abused daily by a manager who called the neck "the handle"- as in, "Shut the $#@& up and glue those handles on the body and get back to work or you are fired!" Maybe 4 minutes per fingerboard for fretting plus another 2 for inlays (15 seconds for inlays and then 1m 45s for the CA glue to cure and sandout)....'Nothing romantic or loving about that.....