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Thread: Was Bill Monroe The First?

  1. #76
    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Was Bill Monroe The First?

    John - That question is a tad outside the remit of the thread in general - although i do understand it. We could ask many similar questions :- What if there were no banjos,mandolins,guitars & fiddles / bass fiddles ?. However,Bill Monroe was born & there are all those instruments - we can't change that,
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  3. #77
    Oval holes are cool David Lewis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Was Bill Monroe The First?

    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    All of this begs the question, "What if Bill Monroe hadn't been born? Would somebody have come along and invented bluegrass music like Bill did, or would there be no bluegrass music even close to what Bill invented?"

    In
    The first lines of this article I wrote sum up my opinion.

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    Default Re: Was Bill Monroe The First?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Lewis View Post
    The first lines of this article I wrote sum up my opinion.

    http://www.toppermost.co.uk/bill-monroe/
    Wow, David. Your opinion in that piece seems a bit over the top to me. No Monroe, no bluegrass. I can see that. But no Dylan? No Elvis?

    As influential as Bill Monroe was on American music as a whole, he was certainly not wholly responsible for it. I don't see Elvis Presley, Johnny Cash or Bob Dylan being that dependent on what Bill Monroe did. Also, Bill Monroe did in no wise create the Grand Ol' Opry, but the Opry certainly helped to popularize Monroe and his style.

    I'm all for giving him his props, but sometimes I read things about him that imply a nearly blind worship of the man, and your first paragraph seems to edge in that direction. Just my opinion here, and no offense intended.
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    Default Re: Was Bill Monroe The First?

    As far as single-handedly creating a genre.....I'm guessing you don't listen to Django Reinhardt...

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    Default Re: Was Bill Monroe The First?

    Well we can extend the concept to many other people and things. Like if Lloyd Loar hadn't been born would we even have the Gibson F5 Master Model design we have today? Makes me think of the Nobel Prize winners who came up with something first, while one or two or three other people from around the world were working on the same thing at the same time. It's somewhat tangential to my original post, but isn't that what we often do here?
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  9. #81
    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Was Bill Monroe The First?

    Hi Doc - Django Reinhardt was a Belgian born 'Romani-French' Gypsy,as were all his family family. The 'Gypsy' style of guitar playing that he became famous for,was already in place - but,he took it to another level. His father was already playing in a ''Gypsy'' band along with his 7 brothers,so the music was very well established long before JR was born.

    So,far from creating the Gypsy Jazz genre in it's entirity,JR did expand & develop the techniques used,& maybe in that respect,he actually 'did' create a 'new sound' for an older musical genre.

    Maybe the Chris Thile of the Gypsy Jazz guitar ??.

    Mark - I tend to agree with you that sometimes our complete admiration for certain folk,can mar our judgement - to a degree. There isn't a person on the planet who admires Bill Monroe more than myself - but it's soley based on his music. I've read all the BM biographies available,& i'm sure that those others who've done the same will know that there were a few 'dark moments' in BM's life. I'm not sure whether it's in any way 'good or meaningful' in the context of his music to have read about those,but it does give us an understanding of the 'man' - ''warts 'n all ''.

    Having recently read the new book by Tom Ewing,i read a few things that i may not have really cared to read about,but i see/hear about those sort of things every day. I've learned to put them to one side & remember what really matters - with Bill Monroe,of course,it's his music,
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    Default Re: Was Bill Monroe The First?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    Wow, David. Your opinion in that piece seems a bit over the top to me. No Monroe, no bluegrass. I can see that. But no Dylan? No Elvis?

    As influential as Bill Monroe was on American music as a whole, he was certainly not wholly responsible for it. I don't see Elvis Presley, Johnny Cash or Bob Dylan being that dependent on what Bill Monroe did. Also, Bill Monroe did in no wise create the Grand Ol' Opry, but the Opry certainly helped to popularize Monroe and his style.

    I'm all for giving him his props, but sometimes I read things about him that imply a nearly blind worship of the man, and your first paragraph seems to edge in that direction. Just my opinion here, and no offense intended.
    No offence taken. I thought about it very hard and qualified it. I only picked artists who deliberately praised monroe about the influence he had on them. Dylan's comments can be found in the Dylan encyclopaedia. Elvis. and Carl Perkins had a well scummed conversation, which is quoted in smith, can’t you hear me calling? Johnny cash can be found in his biography I think by hilburn.

    I’m certainly not of the school that monroe was untouchable in critique. But his influence is immense.
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  13. #83
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    Default Re: Was Bill Monroe The First?

    I'm glad no offense was given, David, because I think you know I respect your research; we've communicated a bit about it in recent years. I just disagree strongly with those initial assertions. It's one thing to note influences, and another to assert dependence. I seriously doubt those guys actually owe their careers to Bill Monroe. I could be wrong in that he may have saved Dylan from drowning in a river somewhere, Johnny Cash from being struck by a train, maybe pulled Elvis out of a fire at the peril of his life. Some important, unknown-to-me circumstance. Unlikely though. Being influenced by Bill Monroe (or Blind Willie, or Hank Williams, etc. etc.) as seminal as that can be, doesn't equate to there would be no Elvis, Dylan or Johnny Cash without one of those influences.

    My point made, moving on. Godspeed on your research.
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    Default Re: Was Bill Monroe The First?

    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    All of this begs the question, "What if Bill Monroe hadn't been born? Would somebody have come along and invented bluegrass music like Bill did, or would there be no bluegrass music even close to what Bill invented?"
    Now that is a point to ponder. The possibilities are endless.

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    Default Re: Was Bill Monroe The First?

    I feel like I need to state clearly, Bill Monroe was GREAT and his influence felt worldwide, musically.

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    Default Re: Was Bill Monroe The First?

    Absolutely Mark,& isn't that realistically ALL, we as musicians need to understand. However,as with most famous people,others will want the 'facts'. There's hardly a famous composer or musician that hasn't had at least a part of their life commited to paper for folks to read,& Bill Monroe is no exception.

    One of my favourite Rock/Blues musicians is Eric Clapton. I have his autobiography,& take my word,it wasn't nice to read of him being totally close to death on drugs & booze at one point. However,the guy had the strength of personality & the courage to understand what he had to do to pull himself 'back from the brink' & he single handedly did it - nobody can do it for you,& that's one of the reasons why i admire the guy 'as a person' so much. When i listen to EC however,i never think of those bad times in his life - just his music,the same goes for Bill Monroe,
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    Default Re: Was Bill Monroe The First?

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph johansson View Post
    According to Smith's bio, Monroe bought the F5 in 1943. Most people would date the beginning of Bluegrass as a genre to Dec 1945, when Earl Scruggs joined the band. But both Scruggs and Don Reno played in other bands before Monroe, so Scruggs liked to say that Bluegrass started with the Morris Brothers.

    Monroe, on the other hand, claimed that BG started in 1939 with the first edition of the BG Boys, specifically with Mule Skinner Blues on which he played the guitar, supposedly to establish the Bluegrass beat. My guess is that on his first two recorded solo numbers as a singer (the other being Doghouse Blues) he just felt more comfortable backing himself on the guitar.

    Monroe's exact motives for buying the F5 will never be known, but he probably became attached to it for its superior punch and volume. The main advantage of the F5 over the F7 is that the longer neck forces a better (higher) placement of the bridge.
    Regarding your one point on why Bill Monroe bought the F-5. Being a mandolin player at the time and having owned at least two Gibson mandolins I am sure the Monroe was probably aware that the F-5 was the top Gibson model. Not sure if he ever saw a Gibson catalog from the day but they were around.

    Someone should check to see exactly what Tom Ewing said about the Florida barbershop encounter in his biography. I can't recall exactly and I'd check it in my own copy but I loaned it to a friend after reading it earlier this month. Pretty good read BTW. I'll bet Tom as some comment or information about almost every month of Monroe's professional life? What a tome!
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    Default Re: Was Bill Monroe The First?

    I'll liken it to Schwinn bicycles. When I was a kid, the company came out with 2 new 10-speed models: the Varsity and the Continental. The latter was sleeker/lighter/better than the former, hands down. Same with the F-5 Monroe saw in that barbershop window. No question.

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    Default Re: Was Bill Monroe The First?

    Knowledge … knowing a tomato is a fruit …. Wisdom … knowing not to put a tomato in a fruit salad …. Philosophy ….. considering whether or not Catsup . . is a smoothie ….. Carry on … R/
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  23. #90
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    Default Re: Was Bill Monroe The First?

    From AlanN - " I'll liken it to Schwinn bicycles...". I'd never heard of Schwinn bicycles until i read Stephen King's novel ''IT''.

    Was Bill Monroe aware of the 'other,better' Gibson mandolins ?. Having read just how single minded BM was in his everyday life,i wonder if he did ,or even if he cared ?. The acquisition of his Loar might simply have been a fortunate circumstance. I've read of no evidence that he ever actually sought one out prior to that. However,many of us are aware of things that we don't actively seek out,but if we do come across a 'whatever',we snap it up !,
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    Default Re: Was Bill Monroe The First?

    Well, here's what Monroe said about buying his famous Loar F-5: "I was in Miami, Florida, and I was just shopping around, you know, looking in store windows, things like that. I passed by this barber shop and this mandolin was laying in the window there, and had this little card up there with the price on it: $150. I went in and listened just a little, played a number or so, and bought it."

    -- 1977 interview with David Grisman, quoted in Bill Monroe:The Life and Music Of the Blue Grass Man, by Tom Ewing, p. 125.

    So, could well have been a spur-of-the-moment, serendipitous purchase, without a lot of thought involved -- ran across a really good instrument, at a low price, bought it. If it hadn't been a special instrument, well-suited to Monroe and his playing style, he might well have passed it on, bought another one later (as, I guess, he did as a back-up), thought little about it. Many mandolins passed through Monroe's hands over his career; this one stuck.
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  27. #92
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    Default Re: Was Bill Monroe The First?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Lewis View Post
    The first lines of this article I wrote sum up my opinion.

    http://www.toppermost.co.uk/bill-monroe/
    Dylan, Cash, and Presley certainly expressed admiration and respect for Monroe, but that doesn’t mean they were influenced by him in any important way. Can you *hear* it?

    I’ve checked the index to Hilburn’s Cash biography and here is no mention of Bill Monroe there.

    No one invents a genre.



    Mule Skinner blues was the first song Monroe recorded with a band, and the first song he performed on the Opry. Before that he had never recorded a vocal solo or an instrumental. The Monroe Brothers’ popularity is perhaps best described as “regional”, but not really “stardom”. Most people would say that BG started in late ’45 when Scruggs joined the BG Boys, because that’s what others took off from. And it was the banjo that made the difference.

    Rawhide: I can’t imagine Sam Bush making such a silly statement. Any documentation?

    Rocky Road Blues: neither the melody (as I’ve explained very carefully above) nor the rhythm.

    And last paragraph: are you suggesting that Hank Williams, Jimmie Rodgers, and Bob Wills, were non-persons?

  28. #93
    Oval holes are cool David Lewis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Was Bill Monroe The First?

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph johansson View Post
    Dylan, Cash, and Presley certainly expressed admiration and respect for Monroe, but that doesn’t mean they were influenced by him in any important way. Can you *hear* it?

    I’ve checked the index to Hilburn’s Cash biography and here is no mention of Bill Monroe there.

    No one invents a genre.



    Mule Skinner blues was the first song Monroe recorded with a band, and the first song he performed on the Opry. Before that he had never recorded a vocal solo or an instrumental. The Monroe Brothers’ popularity is perhaps best described as “regional”, but not really “stardom”. Most people would say that BG started in late ’45 when Scruggs joined the BG Boys, because that’s what others took off from. And it was the banjo that made the difference.

    Rawhide: I can’t imagine Sam Bush making such a silly statement. Any documentation?

    Rocky Road Blues: neither the melody (as I’ve explained very carefully above) nor the rhythm.

    And last paragraph: are you suggesting that Hank Williams, Jimmie Rodgers, and Bob Wills, were non-persons?
    Not in the slightest. Bob wills and jimmy Rodgers, and the carters were huge influences too. And yes I can hear bluegrass: it’s in the rhythm. And don’t forget Elvis did Blue Moon Of Kentucky. Not note for note, and he didn’t know all the words. But he knew it and they did it.

    Again, listen to rocky road blues and then compare it to shake rattle and roll. Not the big joe turner version, but bill Haley or Elvis. No Monroe, a lessened and lighter rock and roll.

    The African Americans are also extremely important.
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    Default Re: Was Bill Monroe The First?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Lewis View Post
    No Monroe, a lessened and lighter rock and roll.

    The African Americans are also extremely important.
    David, David, David. Personally, I think you over-amplify WSM's influence on rock & roll, and following with a nod to the blues as an afterthought is topsy turvy, I think.

    I would agree that you're right in a sense, specifically in this sense: We might conjecture legitimately that the loss of any of the early luminaries of blues, country, bluegrass, ragtime, rock & roll - including Bill Monroe - may have resulted in a "lesser and lighter" legacy in rock & roll.
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    Default Re: Was Bill Monroe The First?

    And now the question first asked is slowly degrading into a discussion of musical influences, pretty soon it will become what is or isn’t bluegrass.
    Making another pot of coffee before that rabbit hole is once again beaten to death.
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    Default Re: Was Bill Monroe The First?

    Well they did put a display on Big Mon in the Rock-n-Roll hall of fame, so I'd say more than a few people feel he had some influence there.
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    Default Re: Was Bill Monroe The First?

    Quote Originally Posted by Timbofood View Post
    ...before that rabbit hole is once again beaten to death.
    Maybe it's the chef in you Timothy. You've really outdone yourself with this mixture.
    "I play BG so that's what I can talk intelligently about." A line I loved and pirated from Mandoplumb

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    Default Re: Was Bill Monroe The First?

    Influences are by nature unquantifiable; how much influence Monroe had on later musicians, especially those outside of bluegrass, is OK to speculate about, but impossible to accurately determine. Lots of them listened to Monroe, may have enjoyed his approach, technique, or repertoire -- but when you try to hear his influence in the music they produce, it can be difficult to identify or quantify it.

    You can, for example, clearly hear late 1940's rhythm & blues African-American music all over early rock'n'roll, in terms of style, repertoire, subject material etc. You can hear "hot" country music from the same period all over rockabilly, and you can hear the white and black styles merging and producing a synthesis different from either source, but clearly related.

    I can hear Bill Monroe in Buddy Holly's music, for sure. And sometimes I think I can hear it in Chuck Berry's as well, though not as clearly. But there so many other influences there; Hank Williams and Louis Jordan, Big Joe Turner and maybe even Sinatra. Picking out one of them as central baffles me.

    What's the single most important ingredient in a chocolate cake? Whichever one you pick, you couldn't have the cake without it, I guess, but you could say the same about every other ingredient as well. Ranking ingredients -- you could go crazy...
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    Default Re: Was Bill Monroe The First?

    Quote Originally Posted by FLATROCK HILL View Post
    Maybe it's the chef in you Timothy. You've really outdone yourself with this mixture.
    Could be Hoss,
    Doing a brace of corned beeves for a translated St. Patrick’s Day feast for family dinner tomorrow with the kids/grand children!
    If you don’t try combining different ingredients, you have the same oatmeal for days!
    But, that has really gone off the tracks with this crazy train! (That is not BG!)
    Have a great feast for St. Patrick!
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