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Thread: How do you approach a complex piece of music

  1. #1

    Default How do you approach a complex piece of music

    Being a Bach head and inspired by this fine display of memory skills I challenged myself to learn it, if not to memorise. After a couple of days I find, as I always do when I approach a piece of music that I get the first 4 bars down reasonably so and everything after that is just shoddy stumbling.

    I'm curious how some of the more musically competent players approach and 'master' a piece of music like this sonata where the notes just keep coming.

    Is it in the approach or does it always come back to skill and level of competence? Strategies I guess.

    Thanks

  2. #2
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    Default Re: How do you approach a complex piece of music

    I recall learning in a science class several decades ago that lab rats quickly learn the beginning and end of a maze, but are much slower to learn the middle section. We are not that far from lab rats in our learning complex pieces of music. One way to combat this is to practice starting in different places. In other words, make the first four bars you practice on a given occasion something other than the first four bars of the piece. Keep shifting until your "first four bars" covers the whole piece.
    Bobby Bill

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    Default Re: How do you approach a complex piece of music

    Quote Originally Posted by bobby bill View Post
    several decades ago
    that made me laugh - in the context of us being lab rats.

    Thanks for a prompt response. I think that's an obvious and probably a good strategy. I might chop the score into 4 bar loops and then everytime I sit down to practise I'll start the next loop segment in the sequence. I recall reading somewhere about learning a piece of music backwards from the last bar to the first. I don't think I'm quite prepared to go that way just yet.

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    Registered User Bob Buckingham's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you approach a complex piece of music

    I have students do what I do. Break the piece down into discrete parts. Learn each part by learning the first part, then the second and on and on. I never learned anything longer than a 5 or 6 parter but it works for and for my students. You will really good at the first parts by the time you have the last one learned and then will also probably be sick of the piece too. LOL!

  6. #5

    Default Re: How do you approach a complex piece of music

    Thanks, you’ve just helped me out as well!

  7. #6

    Default Re: How do you approach a complex piece of music

    I s'pose with simpler/shorter pieces it works easier. I would approach trad tumes by getting a phrase or so down in Part A, then finish the rest of Part A and move into Part B. Because it's relatively short it's not too difficult. (That being said I must make it difficult cos it's never easy or all that great sounding!).

    The thing is with something like this Bach sonata, there's LOADS of phrases and notes and bars. If I do 5 bars daily, on Day 9 I'll be at the end of the first part and probably in a better place than now with it .... but I'm sure not all that far on the road with it. Still, plod on and enjoy the effort.

    I'm sure there's a strategy or holistic approach to getting this stuff down. But I'll take this discussion so far as a good sailing off point to get the piece more familiar under the fingers.

    Thanks for all you input.

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you approach a complex piece of music

    I agree with the posts above to break a longer piece into bite-size chunks. In addition, Paul B, you mention another practice I would recommend: to memorise (or as we say memoriZe). No matter if it is Bach, choro, ballo liscio, musette, etc., I find that having it in the brain helps a lot. Every so often I will go back to the sheet music to see if I have gone astray but I also find that being tied to the notated music separates me from the ability to work on phrasing and dynamics. For some reason I do better with the pieces I have memorized and I am not 100% sure why, but it works for me.
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    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you approach a complex piece of music

    The way I approach a complex piece is usually to start at the beginning and work my way through, memorizing sections as I learn them, and putting in practice on areas that give me trouble, be they a couple measures or several measures. But the most important part for me in learning pieces like that is to get a very good understanding or feeling for the movement of the piece, especially melody and timing.

    This method of plowing through and stopping to focus on trouble spots works very well for me until I encounter any portion that I can't properly hear in my memory or in my mind off the sheet. When I fail to understand or at least feel the movement, especially melody & timing, I can't very easily progress. So there are Bach pieces I can play well for many measures, but unable to memorize or play past areas I got stuck in. Eventually, I'll get back to those. I've had this same experience with certain pieces in the past, and what finally got me through to learning, memorizing and enjoying them was simply taking more time to understand the movement and then muscle on through.
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  10. #9

    Default Re: How do you approach a complex piece of music

    Ha. I realise that i never posted the link to the piece that got me started on this. This thread is well underway but
    I must correct this now:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASr8-rfa8HM

    No doubt he's familiar to the cafe. I was amazed that he'd put that into memory. I agree Jim, that makes a world of difference but it's SO HARD!

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    Registered User DougC's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you approach a complex piece of music

    Everyone is on their own path towards higher skills. Darned humbling isn't it?
    Memory, like 'chops' comes from experience. My violin instructor wife marvels at how I can memorize hundreds of Irish tunes and I envy her ability to play Bach, Mozart, and the rest.

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you approach a complex piece of music

    How much real difference is it, in structure at least, between fiddle tunes and a Bach piece like that one. It is merely arpeggios and scales (boiled down the basics). Breaking down into small chunks it is really all the same. Maybe Michael will chime in here with some words of wisdom. I really think that memorization is the first step (if you wamt to take that route) and it shouldn't be that frightening especially if you have patience.

    BTW what also helps is to listen with memorization and phrasing is to listen to that piece over and over until it is in your ear memory. That would make it somewhat easier. I think the more you play it the more you understand the internal working and the logic of Bach's compositional structure. And remember: it is not just a bunch of notes on a page it is making your instrument sing.

    Hilary Hahn, of of the best musicians on Planet Earth puts emotion and beauty in the performance of this virtuoso piece while she was very young (years ago). This should frustrate us but inspire. Same with Thile's playing.

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    Default Re: How do you approach a complex piece of music

    I sneak up from behind.
    Object to this post? Find out how to ignore me here!

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    Registered User DougC's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you approach a complex piece of music

    It is indeed like learning a language. After the vocabulary and grammar and idioms and jokes and insights, there is still the task of one's accent and phrasing. Pick a good example and work on it, over and over for many years and with a good coach even others might say that you 'have it'. Even Chris admires Hillary's version. Our generation has a good one to follow.
    Thanks for the video Jim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    How much real difference is it, in structure at least, between fiddle tunes and a Bach piece like that one. It is merely arpeggios and scales (boiled down the basics). Breaking down into small chunks it is really all the same. Maybe Michael will chime in here with some words of wisdom. I really think that memorization is the first step (if you wamt to take that route) and it shouldn't be that frightening especially if you have patience.

    BTW what also helps is to listen with memorization and phrasing is to listen to that piece over and over until it is in your ear memory. That would make it somewhat easier. I think the more you play it the more you understand the internal working and the logic of Bach's compositional structure. And remember: it is not just a bunch of notes on a page it is making your instrument sing.

    Hilary Hahn, of of the best musicians on Planet Earth puts emotion and beauty in the performance of this virtuoso piece while she was very young (years ago). This should frustrate us but inspire. Same with Thile's playing.

    Decipit exemplar vitiis imitabile

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    Registered User Bad Monkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you approach a complex piece of music

    way back when I was an undergrad working for my MUCH, I had to memorize stacks of repertoire. It was somewhat daunting to get an hour's worth or better of solo music down for the twice a semester recitals. Until one of my composition profs told me how he 'chopped down the oak". Take the last phrase of the piece/movement/whatever, and learn that. Practice it until it's solid. Then back up one phrase and add that the first. Practice it until it's solid. Back up one more phrase and add it to the other two.Practice it until it's solid. and so on and so on until the piece is solid. Thanks, Kenely Inglefield. That technique has been working for me since 1986.

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    Default Re: How do you approach a complex piece of music

    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Monkey View Post
    Until one of my composition profs told me how he 'chopped down the oak".
    I mentioned that I'd heard of this approach before. It sounds good in theory but I at least can't hear the music when I start at the end, it's like I get the tune in my ear by hearing it move forward. Perhaps in the past I've thought of the music in bars, rather than phrases. Something to review f'sure.

  21. #16

    Default Re: How do you approach a complex piece of music

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    It is merely arpeggios and scales (boiled down the basics).
    I'm glad you said this. It reminded me of my former music teacher who looked over a piece first and did just this, noting that this here is a descending scale, this an arpeggio, and so on. Perhaps that was something I'd forgotten. Instead I just head into the music thinking I can learn it just by picking off the notes on the strings. Although I obviously realise this isn't working for me, having the right approach is what's needed.

    Hilary Hahn, of of the best musicians on Planet Earth puts emotion and beauty in the performance of this virtuoso piece
    That was good. I'm not familiar with her. As far as the Sonata's & Partita's go, once I discovered Arthur Grumiaux no other performer measured up and he's my almost exclusive go to. Good to be introduced to a new voice. The nice thing I found listening to Michael's performance is that it's on a mandolin and I can relate it. When I listen to Grumiaux I hear this wonderful thing but I can't hear it as anything I can relate to mandolin. Having the 2 reference points is very helpful, it begins to decode the puzzle somewhat - at least for me. Actually this whole conversation here is quite enlightening, if I can translate it back to the instrument and the music.

  22. #17

    Default Re: How do you approach a complex piece of music

    (Somewhat off topic). The sublime and celestial Arthur Grumiaux recording is still kicking around on CD, often very cheap too. It's a Double Decca package. I don't know what it is but it is truly something special that passes beyond words. I can't think of much else that is anywhere near this work, one of those summits. Grumiaux does something so special with Bach.

    I've just found this ... it commands you to listen! It lifts me off my tracks - everytime.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKy-X_3OQfw

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    Michael Reichenbach
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    Default Re: How do you approach a complex piece of music

    A detailed article with a lot of useful informations is this:
    How to play music faster: ideal practice methods for adult musicians

    by Dick Hensold © 2011

    For longer pieces I often used to learn from the end of a piece backwords. First I practice the last passage, then go back some measures and play a longer section to the end. By this you can always play up to the end.

    One of the most important things is to avoid playing false, so it's better to start slow and speed up. This means that you have to have decided about fingering early (best before you play at all..).
    Whenever you make a mistake you should slow down and make sure that you know how you want to play.
    For the Bach Presto I had to think a lot about the fingering, and this piece is really hard on a mandolin with a longer scale and higher action.
    Homepage: www.mandoisland.de / Blog: www.mandoisland.com / Freiburg / Germany

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    Registered User maudlin mandolin's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you approach a complex piece of music

    Mike Marshall points out that these Bach pieces are very often written with a great bassline. If you can identify the bassline and work out fingerings so the bass notes ring out or are emphasised in some other way you can just add the notes above which, as you say, may be an arpeggio, scale or other familiar phrase.
    This approach can help not only with memorising the piece but also putting expression into the playing

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  27. #20

    Default Re: How do you approach a complex piece of music

    Discipline: chunks, links, flow, increase tempo, isolate and polish the rough spots until every note equally comfortable, phrasing and dynamics.

    Muscle memory for tempo but also supervising visual memory to prevent distraction train wrecks.

    And, for me I know, some pieces just too hard, unrealistic for me to expect to master them.

  28. #21

    Default Re: How do you approach a complex piece of music

    Hi Michael
    Another vote for the work it backwards approach. I didn't realise it was a well embraced method.

    I was just practising and thinking how I need to sort the fingering out. The Presto doesn't sit well in first position, nor do the open notes that forces you into sound at all right. This is a real challenge for me - thinking about where on the fretboard to play a note! I was going to have a closer look at your video to see what you came up with.

    Thanks for the link, I'll give that a read. Looks good - making best use of scarce practise time.

    And thanks for the video - indeed your entire channel is brimming with good stuff.

  29. #22

    Default Re: How do you approach a complex piece of music

    When I played Bach (on guitar), I read from score and memorized. But what I'm doing now is more complex: I study long pieces in Gaelic pibroch and traditional Chinese - both highly ornamented forms - learning by ear.

    Essentially, I copy what I hear as the music plays on the recording - grabbing bits and pieces as they pass, filling it in, like painting a picture. Sometimes I start with a main section, the intro, or whatever stands out first. By the time I'm finished, it's memorized.

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  31. #23

    Default Re: How do you approach a complex piece of music

    I have a copy of Jig of Slurs from one of the books of collected pipe tunes. It's littered with ornaments that look quite puzzling to a mandolinist. I always loved the pipes, although those marathon competitions they do in Scotland with Pipe bands on football pitches that lasts for hours - I find that a challenge.

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you approach a complex piece of music

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul B View Post
    That was good. I'm not familiar with her. As far as the Sonata's & Partita's go, once I discovered Arthur Grumiaux no other performer measured up and he's my almost exclusive go to. Good to be introduced to a new voice.
    Just to clarify: Hilary Hahn is no longer a teenager. That video was from long ago. She is approaching her 40s now. I listened many times to her rendition of the Bach Chaconne and it always brings me to tears. I will check out Grumiaux playing.

    I believe that Bach and some of the other amazing composers can be interpreted in many ways and it is also instructive to hear different musicians playing it even on different instruments. I also recall an interview with Yo Yo Ma who said that he starts each day playing a piece by Bach (maybe even from the cello sonatas) and has been doing that for decades. He said each time it is completely different.
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  34. #25
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you approach a complex piece of music

    Ah, here is Grumiaux. The presto is at 11:28.

    Jim

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