Pickup/Mic Setup for a Loud Bar Setting

[Bill Slovin]

I know there's been many posts about amplifying the mando, and I've read many of the posts, but wanted to share my setup and see if anyone has any thoughts.

I have a Northfield Master model that was fitted with a Shertler Internal mic that is attached to the underside of the soundboard. The mic was in there when I bought the instrument so I don't really know how well it was installed and if it's in the ideal position. I run that into an LR Baggs Venue DI preamp and then right into the house amp.

The problem I have is that my level is quite low. Even with the sound man cranking me up I'm still very low in the mix and if he goes higher things start to feedback. Recently I've joined up with an acoustic blusey/funky band and now I really need more volume. We play in loud bars and I just don't cut through the mix. I'm open to buying some new gear but before I do, wanted to get people's thoughts.

Here are some of the options I'm considering:

1. Fishman bridge pickup - had one a while back on an older mandolin which I don't have any more, but I'm reluctant to take off my Northfield bridge since the setup and sound are just perfect.

2. Pickup the world pickup (https://www.pickup.world/product/mandolin/) - this is a strip that goes under the existing bridge. Anyone have any experience with these, they look like a great option and some great acoustic players are listed on their web site.

3. Clip on mic like the audio technica PRO 35

4. Some combination of mics and pickups

I need something that allows me to move around so a mic on a stand isn't an option.

I'm not so concerned about tone since if I were in a more intimate setting I wouldn't use a pickup at all I would just mic the mandolin.

-Bill

[pops1]

Try going straight into the board and skip the Baggs. The mismatch of the impedance between the two is huge. The baggs is designed with a 10 meg input and the Schertler only has 4.7k or less depending on which pickup you have. They make preamps, for their pickups, but their input is for a mic, which the Schertler is, and 4.7k for the 1/4".

[Folkmusician.com]

OK, The Shertler is probably a Mic level signal... These are not Piezos. It should be easy enough to get good volume from this regardless of where it is mounted.

It would be nice to know how the endpin is wired. If it is wired balanced (it should be), you could simplify things and run it directly to the board. This would be a stereo 1/4 to XLR cable.

Either way, it should be fine with the Venue. I have tested Shertlers through the Venue and the Pari DI. Results were fine.

So once plugged in, set the gain first. Getting right to where it is just getting into the Red. This meter is POST EQ, so set your EQ first, then finalize the gain. Then the volume.

The volume knob only effects the 1/4 output. This does not change the XLR DI output.

The Fishman has the advantage of Feedback rejection. It won't sound as good as the Shertler, but you can get more volume before feedback.

[Bill Slovin]

Thank you both. I'm not sure how the jack is wired. I do like having the Venue DI since it has the tuner and the gain channel. When I go to playing lead I need a little more boost. I will play around with the gain settings. I don't see the meter get above 2 green bars so sounds like I need to crank it up more.

[Folkmusician.com]

If you are only hitting the two green bars, You do not have enough gain.

If you crank the gain all the way and it is still too low, you are going to need a mic pre in front of the Venue. There are relatively inexpensive versions that are small, so not too big of an issue.

[Schertler USA]

Thank you both. I'm not sure how the jack is wired. I do like having the Venue DI since it has the tuner and the gain channel. When I go to playing lead I need a little more boost. I will play around with the gain settings. I don't see the meter get above 2 green bars so sounds like I need to crank it up more.

Please PM me and I can try to help you more with this!

[Bill Slovin]

If you are only hitting the two green bars, You do not have enough gain.

If you crank the gain all the way and it is still too low, you are going to need a mic pre in front of the Venue. There are relatively inexpensive versions that are small, so not too big of an issue.

What are some mic preamps you'd recommend?

[Steve Lavelle]

The lowest cost mic preamp may be the ART Tube MP Project Series @ ~$75. I can't speak to the quality of that model but I had a an ART Dual mic preamp that was pretty clean if you didn't push the gain. This one is a single channel with a relatively small form factor. Most start at around $300 and go all the way up to a few thousand.

[Folkmusician.com]

The lowest cost mic preamp may be the ART Tube MP Project Series @ ~$75. I can't speak to the quality of that model but I had a an ART Dual mic preamp that was pretty clean if you didn't push the gain. This one is a single channel with a relatively small form factor.

I also like these for the cost/form factor... They have some noise (acceptible) and will overdrive if pushed hard, but overall a great piece of kit to have.

Behringer makes one for under $40 (no experiance with it).

A small mixer will also work fine. There are close to 50 options here all under $100.
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The Venue doesn't have enough gain when cranked?

[pops1]

I have had the ART tube pre in the past and replaced the 12AX7 with a 12AT7 and liked it much more.

[Bill Slovin]

Nope can’t get enough volume with the Venue cranked. Tried it and with it fully maxed out I was getting a very distorted sound, backed it off a bit and the meter barely went above 3 green bars.

After speaking with the Shertler guys they said that I’m better off running a balanced cable from the Mando directly into the soundboard. The Venue is not a mic input so I’d need a preamp if I was going to keep the venue in the chain.

[Folkmusician.com]

After speaking with the Shertler guys they said that I’m better off running a balanced cable from the Mando directly into the soundboard. The Venue is not a mic input so I’d need a preamp if I was going to keep the venue in the chain.

If you trust your sound guy and the board has good EQ, this sounds like the way to go. If you want/need the veny, the basic inline mic pre shoud give you plenty of gain into the Venue.

[illinoisfiddler]

I would go with a bridge pickup, like the Fishman Nashville M300. Used with a good preamp, it will have the output you need for these types of gigs. I messed around with mics and contact pickups ala Baggs Radius for years until I settled on this one. Most gigs I play, with drums, electric guitars and bass, are just too loud to survive with anything else!

[Cheryl Watson]

I've never been able to use a microphone (internal or external) in a loud bar because of feedback. In a loud situation, I need a monitor which adds to even more feedback problems with a mic. I have the Fishman mic/undersaddle combo called the Fishman Eclipse Blend in my guitar and a K&K in my mandolin. For my guitar Fishman setup, the mic can be completely turned off, but it is right there if you are in a space in which a mic will work. That said, at this time in my life, I usually avoid loud bars and choose play in performance situations or play more mellow music in a relatively quiet atmosphere. The K&K in my mando likes my Red-Eye pre and I am old school, so I like a nice graphic equalizer to reduce feedback and to further shape the sound. If I had to play mandolin in a loud band, in a loud venue, I would use the Fishman bridge system (totally replace the bridge) run through a Baggs ParaDi, and I might even add to the chain a feedback reducer (which can kill the tone) but I hate feedback.

[MontanaMatt]

Tonedexter. Has a notch filter if the feedback filters don’t get things under control.
Also use the new digital mixing solutions that provide visual frequency identification and eq options. We perform with condenser mics in loud sound environments and high spl and have no problem taming the squeal.

—we use in ear monitors, which greatly reduces stage volumes. Wedges make it significantly more challenging

[mandroid]

Might be an environment only a solid body electric* can tame.

*or maybe a Godin A8 ..

[illinoisfiddler]

I am not getting feedback with the Fishman M300 and the mando can get pretty loud. With the K&K it was really hard to get any volume before feedback.

[pops1]

I have floated a thin magnetic pickup from the pickguard of a regular mandolin and gotten quite loud with no feedback problems. Drums and electric guitars.

[MontanaMatt]

Scratch my tonedexter suggestion. I think it’s only designed for working with piezoelectric pickups, not mics.