Want to learn Jazz mandolin

[ralph johansson]

The low G on the mandolin is the G at the third fret of the guitar on the low E string. That’s the sense I was aiming for.

As for the melodies, parallel fifths tuning. Why that works better? I’d have to examine it.

To be exact, the low g on the mandolin is on the open g string on guitar, the fifth fret of the d string, the tenth fret of the A string, and the *fifteenth* fret of the E string.


No, at least in my case it has little to do with the tuning. The fifths tuning to me simply means that fast notey pieces, like fiddle tunes, involve fewer awkward string crossings.
It's in the sound and range of the instrument.

People talk a lot about the lack of "symmetry" or "logic" in classical guitar tuning as being a serious obstacle, but it never was to me when learning, 60 years ago (not saying that anything was easy). It's just a different logic, e.g., the intervals add up to exactly two octaves and the open strings form an em7 chord (plus the low A). Strings 1-3 form a minor triad, useful as top notes of a maj7 or a 9th chord, 2-4 form a major triad and you also have a very nice 7th between strings 6 and 4, useful at least in rooted harmony, were you can often imitate the left hand voicings of a pianist, at least in older styles.

(The lowest four strings on the guitar in open position just about cover all of bass clef, with the low E on the first ledger line below the staff and the open g on the highest space.)

On mandolin you can forget about rooted harmony altogether (someone else will supply the root anyway) and several guitar voicings carry over well if you omit one note. E.g., on guitar I might play d-g-bb-f (frets 10-12) for D9, on mandolin I omit the bb. But, of course I never think of it that way, the voicings I find on either instrument are those that appeal to me.

[Perry]

In Fundamentals of Guitar-by Miles Okazaki one of the concepts he points out is that on guitar these notes on the fingerboard are unique..... every other fretted note not shown here is a repeat. This makes guitar unique among instruments. Mandolin does have some repeat notes on the fingerboard but not nearly as as many.

e 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
b 0 1 3 3 4 5
g 0 1 3 3 4 5
d 0 1 3 3 4 5
a 0 1 3 3 4 5
E 0 1 3 3 4 5



Great book by the way.

[Carl23]

In Fundamentals of Guitar-by Miles Okazaki one of the concepts he points out is that on guitar these notes on the fingerboard are unique..... every other fretted note not shown here is a repeat. This makes guitar unique among instruments. Mandolin does have some repeat notes on the fingerboard but not nearly as as many.
.

This doesn't quite make sense to me... I thought the only non duplicated notes would be the lowest frets on the lowest string.

I'm not a guitar player, but can someone explain this to me?

C

[ralph johansson]

To be exact, the low g on the mandolin is on the open g string on guitar, the fifth fret of the d string, the tenth fret of the A string, and the *fifteenth* fret of the E string.


No, at least in my case it has little to do with the tuning. The fifths tuning to me simply means that fast notey pieces, like fiddle tunes, involve fewer awkward string crossings.
It's in the sound and range of the instrument.

People talk a lot about the lack of "symmetry" or "logic" in classical guitar tuning as being a serious obstacle, but it never was to me when learning, 60 years ago (not saying that anything was easy). It's just a different logic, e.g., the intervals add up to exactly two octaves and the open strings form an em7 chord (plus the low A). Strings 1-3 form a minor triad, useful as top notes of a maj7 or a 9th chord, 2-4 form a major triad and you also have a very nice 7th between strings 6 and 4, useful at least in rooted harmony, were you can often imitate the left hand voicings of a pianist, at least in older styles.

(The lowest four strings on the guitar in open position just about cover all of bass clef, with the low E on the first ledger line below the staff and the open g on the highest space.)

On mandolin you can forget about rooted harmony altogether (someone else will supply the root anyway) and several guitar voicings carry over well if you omit one note. E.g., on guitar I might play d-g-bb-f (frets 10-12) for D9, on mandolin I omit the bb. But, of course I never think of it that way, the voicings I find on either instrument are those that appeal to me.

Changed from D9 to Eb9 in a couple of places, but forgot the others. Changing back, d-g-bb-f should be
c-f#-a-e, and bb should be a.

[Bruce Clausen]

This doesn't quite make sense to me... I thought the only non duplicated notes would be the lowest frets on the lowest string.

Right, Carl. The "unique" notes on guitar are low E-F-F#-G-G#, then you have at least two options for all the rest except the very highest notes (which vary depending on number of frets). Likewise on mandolin the low G-G#-A-A#-B-C-C# can only be played in one place.

[Carl23]

Right, Carl. The "unique" notes on guitar are low E-F-F#-G-G#, then you have at least two options for all the rest except the very highest notes (which vary depending on number of frets). Likewise on mandolin the low G-G#-A-A#-B-C-C# can only be played in one place.

Tell me about it... F# chords with F# in the root! :-|

[David Lewis]

‘In a sense...’

[Perry]

Right, Carl. The "unique" notes on guitar are low E-F-F#-G-G#, then you have at least two options for all the rest except the very highest notes (which vary depending on number of frets). Likewise on mandolin the low G-G#-A-A#-B-C-C# can only be played in one place.

right I edited my post...was doing it w/o guitar in hand

[Perry]

In Fundamentals of Guitar-by Miles Okazaki one of the concepts he points out is that on guitar these notes on the fingerboard are unique..... every other fretted note not shown here is a repeat. This makes guitar unique among instruments. Mandolin does have some repeat notes on the fingerboard but not nearly as as many.

e 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
b 0 1 3 3 4 5
g 0 1 3 3 4 5
d 0 1 3 3 4 5
a 0 1 3 3 4 5
E 0 1 3 3 4 5



Great book by the way.

should be:

e 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
b 0 1 2 3 4
g 0 1 2 3
d 0 1 2 3 4
a 0 1 2 3 4
E 0 1 2 3 4



Would be wise to equate this to mandolin.

[Carl23]

Perry,

I've been thinking about this and something bothers me...

Most of the "unique" notes listed are not unique... precisely because they are duplicated elsewhere on the neck. This allows mandolins to play unison pitches on two strings and other effects.

The only "unique" notes on any multi-stringed instrument would be the distance between the lowest string and the next highest string.

I"d have to see the context of Okazaki's presentation to see if I agree with the concept. It seems to me that this would be a very limiting approach to the fret-board.

Without copying too much from his book, could you give a summary of how he applies this idea?

Thanks,
Carl

[DavidKOS]

The only "unique" notes on any multi-stringed instrument would be the distance between the lowest string and the next highest string.

Sorry to jump in on this - as a topic, we are now far from just learning jazz mandolin - but the only unique one-and-only-one place to finger the note pitches on any multi-string instrument are the lowest notes on the lowest string that are below the pitch of the next string, and whatever notes are on the upper extreme end of the fingerboard that are not on any lower strings.

Other than that, there are alternate fingerings for all the other pitches, at times as many as there are strings on your instrument and of course, depending on the fingerboard.

[JonZ]

Is it some kind of natural law that every discussion of how to learn jazz must become over complicated?

[DavidKOS]

Is it some kind of natural law that every discussion of how to learn jazz must become over complicated?

Yes, because it is more theoretically complex music than many other more rootsy folksy styles. This is not to say jazz is "better" - but that jazz, due to its use of Romantic era harmonic vocabulary, key changes inside songs, and so on, IS more complicated than old-time, Bluegrass, rock, blues, or most other musical genres.

Sorry, it's the facts. You play more chords in a song like "All the Things You Are" than some bands use all night.

[JonZ]

But beginning to learn jazz should be kept as simple as possible.

[DavidKOS]

But beginning to learn jazz should be kept as simple as possible.

OK.

Learn some tunes, practice your scales, chords, and arpeggios. Learn more tunes.

Repeat as needed. Don't start with bebop, start with swing tunes.

go to www.Jazz-Mandolin.com

[JonZ]

But the internet is for porn, cats and digression. So carry on!

[DavidKOS]

But the internet is for porn, cats and digression. So carry on!

My cat asked me to post this:



back to jazz mandolin

[AaronWeinstein]

Well, I got lost somewhere along the halfway point of this thread. Just saying.

[Perry]

Perry,

I've been thinking about this and something bothers me...

Most of the "unique" notes listed are not unique... precisely because they are duplicated elsewhere on the neck. This allows mandolins to play unison pitches on two strings and other effects.

The only "unique" notes on any multi-stringed instrument would be the distance between the lowest string and the next highest string.

I"d have to see the context of Okazaki's presentation to see if I agree with the concept. It seems to me that this would be a very limiting approach to the fret-board.

Without copying too much from his book, could you give a summary of how he applies this idea?

Thanks,
Carl

The point being that there is more then one way to skin a cat....less ways to skin a cay on the mandolin...so my point being that learning the mandolin fret-board and all the notes should be somewhat easier..someone else had brought the guitar fret-board into the thread

See Miles book excerpt below:

[Ranald]

But beginning to learn jazz should be kept as simple as possible.

I'm not a jazz player, but I agree with you. I've noted often that some people at the Cafe like to get into great detail about everything. Some poor beginner says, I just found a mandolin in my attic, restrung it, and I'm wondering what kind of pick to use, and next thing someone is talking about the weight and thickness of $40 picks. All he really needs is "Go to your music shop and ask for a mandolin pick," or "Try a few different ones." I exaggerate...slightly.

[Joel Glassman]

It depends on how traditional you want to play. I'd suggest starting with swing
music standards and blues from the swing era. If that's the goal, begin listening to
[and learning] the blues solos of players in the Count Basie Orchestra 1936-43 or so.

[DavidKOS]

Well, I got lost somewhere along the halfway point of this thread. Just saying.

The possibilities are endless, so let's keep searching for exciting ways to make this instrument "work" in Jazz.

So instead of all the side issues, the OP wanted to "learn jazz mandolin"; several good ideas were presented.

How do you make this instrument "work" in Jazz? - same as any other instrument in jazz.

Learn your instrument

Learn tunes

Learn to play over the chord changes

Have fun.

Simple enough?

[David Lewis]

I'm not a jazz player, but I agree with you. I've noted often that some people at the Cafe like to get into great detail about everything. Some poor beginner says, I just found a mandolin in my attic, restrung it, and I'm wondering what kind of pick to use, and next thing someone is talking about the weight and thickness of $40 picks. All he really needs is "Go to your music shop and ask for a mandolin pick," or "Try a few different ones." I exaggerate...slightly.

You’re not wrong but there’s a difference between a pick which the complexity of the choice has to grow with your experience, if you’ve decided to play jazz you need to know that it may be more philosophically complex than you might be aware.

[ralph johansson]

Musical conversation is as old in jazz as traditional New Orleans collective improvisation - which makes it maybe 120-ish years old in the style.

Great post, CarlM, and one of my jazz playing buddies, a world-class reed player, likes it best when jazz is a "conversation" except that instead of words we use music as the medium.

"Conversation" is a useful concept, at least as analogy. You've said every single word before, but you're (hopefully) sticking to the current topic, at the same time being prepared for unexpected response, or challenge from your fellow players.

One saxophonist with whom I had many interesting conversations once said that creativity occurs when information collides (e.g., when your idea of the next bar clashes with suggestions from your fellow players). I like to think of improvisation as a method of discovery. It's not *about* playing something different every night, because that's automatic.

Perhaps the greatest example I know of conversation in jazz is Miles Davis' live recording of My Funny Valentine. To my ears Davis doesn't strive for a complete coherent statement. I think of his two choruses as a dialog between the trumpet and the drums, moderated by the bass player.

By contrast, in some of Stan Getz' recordings of the 50's, I feel that his playing is so complete, so well balanced, that he doesn't really need the rhythm cats at all. (We, as listeners, need them, of course.) And Getz performed and recorded with much more challenging musicians later in life. E.g., Kenny Barron on his very last album, recorded in Copenhagen.

[ralph johansson]

Great article!

As one that advocates study of ALL periods of jazz, not just "modern" jazz, I love this:

" Some of my peers regard earlier jazz as harmonically restricted. It’s less complicated, true. But those unworried diatonic/bluesy rubs seem more harmonically open than today’s common practice of carefully agreed-upon changes, substitute changes, and advanced extensions. Might it be time to go back to early jazz and worry about the changes a little less?"

"for it’s technically and historically correct for the rhythm section not to be precisely together. It makes it “funky” or “raw.”"

"These days, many young jazz players learn about how to play on standard chord changes by looking at a sheet from a Jamey Aebersold Play-A-Long."

I could have written that line.

I wish the article had gone on longer.

I've noted (e.g., in YouTube videos) that beginners are much too anxious to play the right notes over each single chord so that they all but lose direction and flow and rhythmic interest. I believe rhtyhm is more important than harmony in structuring and driving improvisation.

And much of what is noted as "harmonically interesting" in analyses of recorded solos to my mind is just the supremacy of melody.

That is one reason the aspiring jazz player must start with relatively simple chord structures, such as the blues, rhythm changes, Honeysuckle Rose, Lady Be Good, and tunes with relatively static outsides and circle-of fifths bridges (e.g, Stomping at the Savoy, Don't Be That Way, Topsy, Johnson Rag) and work on these until he's comfortable with just forgetting the changes and going where his ears and imagination lead him.