Want to learn Jazz mandolin

[Teak]

I've noted (e.g., in YouTube videos) that beginners are much too anxious to play the right notes over each single chord so that they all but lose direction and flow and rhythmic interest. I believe rhtyhm is more important than harmony in structuring and driving improvisation.

And much of what is noted as "harmonically interesting" in analyses of recorded solos to my mind is just the supremacy of melody.

That is one reason the aspiring jazz player must start with relatively simple chord structures, such as the blues, rhythm changes, Honeysuckle Rose, Lady Be Good, and tunes with relatively static outsides and circle-of fifths bridges (e.g, Stomping at the Savoy, Don't Be That Way, Topsy, Johnson Rag) and work on these until he's comfortable with just forgetting the changes and going where his ears and imagination lead him.

Well said, ralph! This has been my experience also. I have stuck with simple "jazz" tunes such as Honeysuckle Rose and Devojko Mala and created my own "alternate" melodies that stuck within the harmonic structure but also sounded like they "fit" with the basic tune. My best has come from noddling around in the practice room on my own, and finding patterns that sounded good. I don't try to improvise on-the-fly in performance. No one wants to hear meandering noodling, not even my bandmates, and that is what newbees are prone to doing.

There has been much said in this thread, and while it has all been well and good, it could cause us rank beginners to overthink jazz improv. If it doesn't sound good to the ear, what is the point?

[JonZ]

I have a son who is a professional jazz bassist and conservatory student, and this was very much his first teacher’s philosophy. For six years, the primary question was always “What do you hear inside?” It was not about running through scales and arpeggios or reproducing someone else’s solo. It was about executing what he heard inside.

[DavidKOS]

I have a son who is a professional jazz bassist and conservatory student, and this was very much his first teacher’s philosophy. For six years, the primary question was always “What do you hear inside?” It was not about running through scales and arpeggios or reproducing someone else’s solo. It was about executing what he heard inside.

My teachers said that you studied your instrument, scales, etc. so you could eventually connect your "inside" as you call it to your actual playing. That's the point, but to do so requires technical ability so one can express the inner music one hears in ones head.

[Perry]

My teachers said that you studied your instrument, scales, etc. so you could eventually connect your "inside" as you call it to your actual playing. That's the point, but to do so requires technical ability so one can express the inner music one hears in ones head.

Looks like the OP is not following this thread anyway but I have finally come around to really thinking about chord tones when I play and not thinking in a scalar fashion. So
it's important to be able to name every note on your fingerboard and get familiar with chord construction and realizing that the 3rd and 7th of the chord are very important.

Also before you improvise learn the songs melody in as many locations and octaves on your fingerboard as possible.

[DavidKOS]

but I have finally come around to really thinking about chord tones when I play and not thinking in a scalar fashion. So
it's important to be able to name every note on your fingerboard and get familiar with chord construction

Perhaps I should let this thread end, but the scales are there just to help with the chords...or do the chords come form the tonal center scales...but:

"be able to name every note on your fingerboard and get familiar with chord construction"

My teachers would have considered this basic musicianship, jazz notwithstanding

[Bill McCall]

.... So
it's important to be able to name every note on your fingerboard and get familiar with chord construction and realizing that the 3rd and 7th of the chord are very important.

Maybe. And certainly understanding chord construction is a key, but recognizing the patterns of the chord tones, ie, arpeggio shapes starting on any of the chord tones is, for me, a lot more useful than being able to identify the Bb, F# our any other specific note location across the fingerboard. I can play in keys in which I can't name the scale notes easily but can grab the arpeggios by knowing just one of the chordtones.

ymmv

[JonZ]

My teachers said that you studied your instrument, scales, etc. so you could eventually connect your "inside" as you call it to your actual playing. That's the point, but to do so requires technical ability so one can express the inner music one hears in ones head.

Maybe I exaggerated a little. He did complete the Smandel book, too.

[JonZ]

I have been thinking a little more about how my son learned the bass, and why I think he learned to play at a high level relatively quickly. His brother also got to a professional level on jazz violin rapidly.

A lot of people improve their scales, arpeggios, chords, licks and transcribed solos faster than they improve their ability to think musically. Those skills are a standard type of learning that you can get “right” or “wrong”, so people feel safe there. But, they end up with a lot of vocabulary and nothing to say. Learning how to think musically is a more difficult type of learning challenge, but it needs to be given primacy.

That’s why the people who learn fastest are the ones who are gigging; it drives home the fact that all of those tools have a musical purpose.

[Perry]

I have been thinking a little more about how my son learned the bass, and why I think he learned to play at a high level relatively quickly. His brother also got to a professional level on jazz violin rapidly.

A lot of people improve their scales, arpeggios, chords, licks and transcribed solos faster than they improve their ability to think musically. Those skills are a standard type of learning that you can get “right” or “wrong”, so people feel safe there. But, they end up with a lot of vocabulary and nothing to say. Learning how to think musically is a more difficult type of learning challenge, but it needs to be given primacy.

That’s why the people who learn fastest are the ones who are gigging; it drives home the fact that all of those tools have a musical purpose.

Yes gigging has no substitute...

when you are thinking of the chord at hand you are thinking musically in the moment...when you run scales you are doing just that....running scales and hope you are hitting chord tones at the right time

When I play an A7 chord now I think where is my flat 7 where is my third, my ninth etc...

[catmandu2]

Re bass, there are probably folks who didn't study simandl, like Dave Holland who are simply genius, mingus and cello, et al . But for a mortal like me formal study was essential. I'm all about intuition, but for jazz, man I have to technical rigor. Jon your kids must be gifted for sure. My kids went into the horns, and her attention is swaying due to boys ; ) and I'm too happy with harming temperaments.

But old age has driven me from the king of strings and into harmonic temperaments wherever I can find them! All those notes hurt my fingers! : (

Re mndln, I had to through the banjo to get to jazzv
- the notes are so clear man it's hard to deny. Mndln was not a voice for jazz for me. Or, I guess with gtr background that was inevitable. But still..

[DavidKOS]

Re bass, there are probably folks who didn't study simandl, like Dave Holland who are simply genius, mingus and cello, et al .

How do you know those guys did NOT study Simandl, the standard system for bass playing?

- - - Updated - - -

Re bass, there are probably folks who didn't study simandl, like Dave Holland who are simply genius, mingus and cello, et al .

How do you know those guys did NOT study Simandl, the standard system for bass playing?

"Re mndln, I had to through the banjo to get to jazz" tenor banjo for traditional jazz? or 5 string?

[Tom Wright]

An issue is that acoustic stringed instruments’ tone spreads across the spectrum and seems not appropriate wth drums and a normal rhythm section. In drumless groups the acoustic instrument is better than an electric one for the same sonic reason; string quartets, old time, bluegrass groups don’t miss percussion because the strings have the grit and thump.

But in a “straight-ahead” jazz setting, that is, not a restricted genre, I prefer the fat and focused tone of a pure electric with magnetic pickups. This is partly familiarity with guitar sounds but mainly because it fits better sonically with horns and/or piano.

This means one should be aware, and choose whether to shoot for the broader jazz canon and community or stay in the friendly confines of acoustic jazz. For most mando pickers that seems to mean old swing, emulating Jethro, or chasing Django. I like playing the tunes coming out now by guitar players like John Scofield or Mike Stern, or the innovative tunes by pianists like Cedar Walton, and of course I want to chase the Trane (Coltrane’s “Moment’s Notice” is on our workshop list this month). My solid body is the better choice for that setting.

Gimble used CGDA but I use my E strings plenty, so absolutely need both the C and the higher E. The low notes get within a note of the bottom of tenor sax, and the high notes go up past trumpet range. I can always play a melody or harmony line in lower or higher octave to find the best sound or fit with the others, and I can handle useful chording if there is no piano.

So I would recommend the person wanting to play jazz get a playable 5-string. 10 is better but is pretty much custom, to my knowledge. An interesting approach might be an 8-string mandolin tuned CGDA. The doubled strings make up for the short length, to my ear, adding a richness that otherwise needs some crunch or overdrive to make interesting.

[catmandu2]

Tom, I think moments notice is by Oliver Nelson, IINM.

David, in fact I don't know - only observing (by way of Holland, Mingus, et al) the departure from simandl. But that of course is logical wrt jazz.

Probably nearly all players at that level have studied simandl, and perhaps modified it as needed/personal preferences.

My remark is likely wrong - prbly everyone of that caliber has studied position exercises, simandl, rabbath, whomever... and if not while developing, certainly when entering academia (such as the case with Holland).

Tenor/plectrum banjo. My 5-str playing was always BG, OT, "classic,"...

[Tom Wright]

Tom, I think moments notice is by Oliver Nelson, IINM...

You’re thinking of Stolen Moments.

Moment’s Notice is on Coltrane’s “Blue Train” LP of 1957. It’s a tune I’ve been chasing for something like 30 years, and finally feels great on electric 10-string instead of 5-string electric violin or electric viola.

[catmandu2]

Oh yes, I'm getting old.

[ralph johansson]

Gimble used CGDA but I use my E strings plenty, so absolutely need both the C and the higher E. The low notes get within a note of the bottom of *tenor sax*, and the high notes go up past trumpet range. I can always play a melody or harmony line in lower or higher octave to find the best sound or fit with the others, and I can handle useful chording if there is no piano.

alto sax. The lowest note on alto is dd, the lowest note on a tenor is Ab.

[JonZ]

Re bass, there are probably folks who didn't study simandl, like Dave Holland who are simply genius, mingus and cello, et al .

The funny thing is that my son’s teacher is one of those old school cats who just jumped into playing the bass without any training and had some high profile gigs. After his music career wound down, he picked up Simandl and got into playing classical pieces.

[Tom Wright]

alto sax. The lowest note on alto is dd, the lowest note on a tenor is Ab.

True but rarely played and the Bb is the nominal bottom of the tenor scale. In any case, I am often doubling with our tenor sax in his octave, while I can join the soprano sax in his octave when appropriate.

My lowest note is in between the two saxes’ lowest notes. My point is I cover pretty much the entire jazz instrument melody range, as well as being able to play useful chords below those melodies when comping.

[LiamB]

You're right, but this is the problem: jazz has become so institutionalised that there is a 'right' way and a 'wrong' way. Yet, Jethro Burns, Jason Anick, Chris Biesterfieldt, Don Stiernberg, Dave Appollon, Mike Marshall, David Grisman, Sam Bush, can be just as innovative and exciting as Armstrong, Monk, Davis, Coleman, Parker, Gillespie. (Not always, of course, but there are moments) (and list in no order). Bela Fleck and Tony Trishka and Bill Evans on banjo...

I guess we work out - 1) Jazz is dead and is being curated. You can only play it on certain instruments, and each instrument must follow a certain format (though you can be creative within that format). This has happened with musch music. Write a sonata, and try and break the rules. Or write a sympony. Or even a musical.

or 2) Jazz to survive needs to remember that the great players innovated - they broke the rules and pushed the format further. They also caught an audience. Jazz currently holds something like 2% of the recording sales... maybe we need innovators - real ones, not just 'sounds like Miles, or Alan Holdsworth, or Parker'. Maybe it's waiting for its next innovator. Maybe that's the OP.

Learn the forms of jazz. Then break the rules. And don't listen to anyone who tells you 'you're doing it wrong'. The whole history of jazz is 'doing it wrong'. Armstrong's alleged criticism of bop as 'Chinese music', or Miles' disdain for the technique of bop. The traditionalists dislike of Metheny. Learn it on the mandolin, or learn it on the tin-whistle, or learn it on the bagpipes. (All of these instruments have great jazz players). Until we fail, we haven't succeeded.

Once upon a time, they gave me the same advice and it’s good. I started on a bagpipe of a similar model as here in the description AC Kilts Scottish. This helped me play more confidently in the future and better hear the correct melody

[toddmars]

study this one https://youtu.be/4EKFWjSU-wc?t=220

[talladam]

I realize that this thread has some age to it, but I wanted to chip in with a recommendation to listen to the 'learnjazzstandards.com' podcast. I'm just at the beginning of learning to play jazz but this podcast has all kinds of good advice for how to start and is very inspirational. My only problem is I'm listening to them all quickly and have not been able to digest each topic before listening to the next. Hopefully I can go back and revisit some of the topics when I have time.

On a complete tangent, one of my frustrations with jazz instruction is how often someone says,"now go learn it in all 12 keys." I'm always thinking, "Well, learning it in one key took a month, so I'll see you in a year and a half". I do know that this is important and I realize why people do it. I also think that it must get faster as we go. Just something I always laugh about.

Anyway, seriously, check out the podcast. If I can do 1/4 of the things he recommends I think I will have come a long way.

[Mike Rodbell]

One does not learn to play "jazz mandolin" - one learns to play jazz, applicable to ANY instrument, be it sax, guitar or mandolin.

Like Pete said, you need to learn ALL your scales in every key; you need to know chords and chord arpeggios; and you need to know how to play solos over those chords.

This is the same for all instruments in jazz.

The only thing unique about "jazz mandolin" is that the music is played on a mandolin, the music itself is just jazz.

So to play jazz mandolin you have to dedicate yourself to being a jazz musician as it is the process of how music is played that defines jazz, not a set of particular tunes.

Finally, to learn the language of jazz, you need to listen to a lot of recordings by the masters of jazz - Louis Armstrong, Sidney Bechet, Coleman Hawkins, Lester Young, Basie, Ellington, the Dorseys, Parker, Diz, Coltrane, and Miles Davis as the main innovators.

Sadly there are no "important" jazz mandolin players in the sense that jazz books list influential players.

One of my favorites was Jethro Burns, who had a wonderful swinging style of playing jazz.

Just a few thoughts from a New Orleans native - as in "jazz is my folk music".

Just ran across this & I'd agree 1000%. I found my way to mandolin by first playing guitar for many years. I recall fighting through the Joe Pass Guitar Style book many years back, which is essentially reinforcing David's premise. Its not the instrument, its the music. First step is to develop a feel & understanding for the music (or a subset). Mastering the instrument doesn't hurt, although its simply a vehicle to a similar end. Develop a feel, ear, understand chord progressions, melody structure, scales, etc. all come to play.

You also needn't be an expert in all of those things (could take quite a while). Start small, simple tunes perhaps, get comfortable & find a path to enjoy the journey first!

[Simon DS]

One simple exercise for connecting what you hear in your head to what your fingers are doing is to have your favourite tune, OldTime whatever playing along on say the computer, and you simply jump into the melody at different times. Deliberately stop yourself and then jump in again, like in a jam session, but more methodical. Get used to knowing exactly where you fingers should have been.

Another one, though difficult to do properly because you can’t hear mistakes, is to play along with a well known piece using air-mandolin. No mandolin, just your fingers touching the right frets, in the air.
You’ll be saying, ’That’s a C I hear, my third finger moves there...’.

Yet another is to sing a measure, play a measure, sing, play.

And another, my favourite, is to have a simple tune playing and you play the melody as thirds above. First learn a couple of thirds above tunes and then go for it.
Sounds cool too... when used sparingly.
Especially good if you can jump in and tremolo the final notes of a tune, but a third or fifth above.
Good luck!

[Josh Levine]

I realize that this thread has some age to it, but I wanted to chip in with a recommendation to listen to the 'learnjazzstandards.com' podcast. I'm just at the beginning of learning to play jazz but this podcast has all kinds of good advice for how to start and is very inspirational. My only problem is I'm listening to them all quickly and have not been able to digest each topic before listening to the next. Hopefully I can go back and revisit some of the topics when I have time.

On a complete tangent, one of my frustrations with jazz instruction is how often someone says,"now go learn it in all 12 keys." I'm always thinking, "Well, learning it in one key took a month, so I'll see you in a year and a half". I do know that this is important and I realize why people do it. I also think that it must get faster as we go. Just something I always laugh about.

Anyway, seriously, check out the podcast. If I can do 1/4 of the things he recommends I think I will have come a long way.

Thanks for posting! This podcast is great. I am already a few episodes in. I have wanted to get deeper into jazz as I have really only started to scratch the surface, so it is nice to have another resource to motivate me.

[David Lewis]

I have been working through Jazzology , from Hal Leonard. It's not any instrument specific - maybe piano. But it has some very nice ideas. Also, Ted's Getting into Jazz mandolin will get those fingers working in the right spots. (But that's already been mentioned)