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    Default Thoughts on tremolo

    I've said this before: tremolo is an expressive device to be used when it expresses something. I.e., to me it's not a default technique to be used on, say, anything beyond quarter notes. I try to use it wherever i feel it works, and usually make my decisions in playing. I don't know whether my tremolo is (or, rather, was, I'm 79 years old) misurato or non misurato. It's mine.

    My first thought is a question: in notated art music, is tremolo the player's choice, or is it indicated in the score? In the latter case, is the choice of misurato or non misurato generally stated in the score or left to the player?

    My second thought regards two examples of my own playing about 12 years ago.
    The tunes are "Min soldat" https://www.mandohangout.com/myhango...ch.asp?alpha=M and "Crazy" https://www.flatpickerhangout.com/my...ch.asp?alpha=C . I still cringe when listening to Min soldat, not because it's poorly executed, but because of its arbitrariness; after listening to this recording I decided to use tremolo on the bridge only. On Crazy I used tremolo much more sparingly and in ways I could motivate to myself. E.g.,I attempt a cresendo in several spots,and in at least one instance, the beginning is almost inaudible. On other occasions I've played these tunes differently. I no longer have any recording equipment, otherwise I would rerecord Min soldat, and erase the earlier version. Now I'm keeping it as a negative example
    PS: Min soldat is a Swedish WWII song written by Nils Perne, "Jokern" (Swedish for "the Joker", as in a deck of cards. The girl receives a letter with a photo from her soldier boyfriend "någonstans i Sverige" (somewhere in Sweden) and professes her love for him in spite of his shabby appearence.

    If the bridge sounds familiar, the story is that Perne also wrote the Swedish lyrics for If I Only Had A Brain -- and stole the bridge to that song!

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    Default Re: Thoughts on tremolo

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph johansson View Post
    .... tremolo is an expressive device to be used when it expresses something. I.e., to me it's not a default technique to be used on, say, anything beyond quarter notes.....

    My first thought is a question: in notated art music, is tremolo the player's choice, or is it indicated in the score? In the latter case, is the choice of misurato or non misurato generally stated in the score or left to the player?
    .
    That would depend on the style and period of the music in question. For styles of mandolin that I play, tremolo expresses something even when used as a default technique - it expresses how long notes sustain on a plucked string instrument, whereas a bowed string can sustain a note for quite a long time under one bow stroke.

    I'll let the experts on Baroque and Classical mandolin deal with those style periods.

    As for the 19th Century, particularly Italian music, use of tremolo on longer notes is very common if not required.

    Calace's "Metodo per Mandolino" Parte 1a introduces tremolo in the very first long note exercises!

    By Exercise 35, one is introduced to 8th notes without tremolo, using alternate picking.

    Examples like Exercise 50 show both non-tremolo 8th notes AND groupings of 8th notes under slurs that are indicated as "tremolato" showing that these 8ths are played with tremolo. This exercise also has both alternate picking passages, but also some places where 2 downstrokes are played in a row, and near the end has an ascending Em arpeggio played only in downstrokes.

    Some of the exercises that follow deal with passages that have combinations of notes played with and without tremolo in various patterns.

    Parte 2 begins with long tremolo notes with changing dynamics. From this point on various markings indicate which fingerings, strings, articulations, picking directions, etc. are used.

    In Munier's Scuola del Mandolino part1, he also begins with exercises "del tremolo e dello staccato".

    The English translation says " the mechanism of the mandolin is divided in two quite different manners: one of quick movement of repeated notes called tremolo, and is used for playing the notes of long value - and of a brilliant movement called staccato, and it is used for the notes of agility."

    I could go on...but the short answer is that in the styles of mandolin that I am used to, longer notes are played with tremolo unless there is some marking that indicates otherwise.

    As far as measured and unmeasured tremolo, that is also something that can vary by style and composer's ( or player's) intentions.

    Many method books use a measured tremolo as the basis of teaching tremolo.

    I'm curious what others have to offer about this subject.

    From what I understand about the German classical mandolin tradition, the use of tremolo is much less used and more specific than the Italian schools.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on tremolo

    DavidKOS, While your explanations often leave me scratching my head, I always find them interesting and informative. Thank you and do continue with your "splaining". So much to know, so little room left in the hard drive. < sigh Play on friends, play on. R/
    I love hanging out with mandolin nerds . . . . . Thanks peeps ...

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    Default Re: Thoughts on tremolo

    Quote Originally Posted by UsuallyPickin View Post
    DavidKOS, While your explanations often leave me scratching my head, I always find them interesting and informative. Thank you and do continue with your "splaining". So much to know, so little room left in the hard drive. < sigh Play on friends, play on. R/
    I appreciate that...sometimes I'm still "scratching my head" and trying to learn more about the mandolin! So much to know!

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    Default Re: Thoughts on tremolo

    For me it depends on what I'm playing and if I am playing by myself or with others.
    I often do not use it for quarter notes but instead for any note longer than a quarter note as mandolins do not offer the sustain needed in some tunes.
    I have seen notation with tremolo noted with slash line across the note's stem.
    Try playing the Beatle's Norwegian Wood Instrumental part with out tremolo on any note longer than a quarter note for example. This is just one example of where tremolo would not work just using it for quarter notes. (is it possible you meant not using tremolo for any note shorter than a quarter note?)
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    Default Re: Thoughts on tremolo

    I am a big fan of the tremolo, a great defender of the tremolo, I love the tremolo...with time I have learned that its use depends on our taste, on what we want to express when we play a particular piece.

    Although I study classical mandolin at the moment, I don't think I will become a classical mandolin player, so I am not very orthodox about measured or unmeasured tremolo (there are also strange things like the Kubota tremolo). I think that the tremolo can easily replace a trill in some pieces, and that the tremolo can be changed by mordents, runs, vibrato, etc. and vice versa in some cases, it all depends on our ear and how rigorous we want to be with the use of the score and the musical period it represents.

    For me the most important thing in the tremolo is the "expression", and by expression I mean speed, speed variation, volume and duration...on that expression depends the beauty and the feeling. American bluegrass and old time mandolin players are masters in that, their tremolos, double stop tremolos with strength sometimes, sweetness sometimes, are an example to follow...the tremolo in italian music or golden era music the same, pop, world music...listen, always listen, everything is music...so we can get what best suits our taste...

    Well in the end what I want to say is that just because the tremolo is suggested, underlined or used by a musician, a method writer or a score we don't have to do it...let's learn to trust our criteria, our taste, wrong or not...contrary to what many may say, music is not a science, it is an art, and art is made by human beings, and human beings are not perfect, mistakes form us...
    Last edited by Jairo Ramos; Jan-20-2024 at 1:04pm.
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    Default Re: Thoughts on tremolo

    When I was a regular attendee at Carlo Aonzo‘s workshops, we played quite a bit of Baroque era music, and his instructions was to almost never use tremolo for the in those pieces. However, once you get to the more romantic era, classical mandolin, music, like Calace, Munier, Ranieri, etc., then tremolo is the preferred. I don’t recall — and I have to look at the music — but I don’t recall that the Trello was indicated or was just understood for certainly quarter notes and longer.

    In more modern Mandolin music, I believe the composers often will indicate where they want tremolo or not or other dynamics but that I believe is true about most composers having more control over their music in later times. I would say 20th century and later.
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    Default Re: Thoughts on tremolo

    When you guys say tremolo I guess you’re talking about 6 beats per quarter? 3 per eighth?

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    Default Re: Thoughts on tremolo

    My impression of the questions posed by the OP show the more recent trend in some classical transcriptions to indicate supposedly valiant attempts to make everything exactly in a transcription using music notation. However, even classical music didn’t attempt to avoid improvisational interpretation for most of its history. Bach is a great example of classical improvisation if you really research the music, and Vivaldi didn’t write full orchestral scores as are now offered as the “correct” way to play the original composition. I’d side with the comments basically leaving interpretation of a particular technique to the whim of the mandolinist for placement and duration.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on tremolo

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon DS View Post
    When you guys say tremolo I guess you’re talking about 6 beats per quarter? 3 per eighth?
    That depends on the overall tempo.

    Honestly, I like to play as many tremolo notes as possible to give the illusion of sustain...but that's my personal way. I guess I use unmeasured tremolo more than measured.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on tremolo

    Quote Originally Posted by Altmandw View Post
    ... However, even classical music didn’t attempt to avoid improvisational interpretation for most of its history. Bach is a great example of classical improvisation if you really research the music, and Vivaldi didn’t write full orchestral scores as are now offered as the “correct” way to play the original composition. I’d side with the comments basically leaving interpretation of a particular technique to the whim of the mandolinist for placement and duration.
    Apart from Bach and vivaldi being Baroque composers - Beethoven was quoted as saying to play exactly what he wrote - not to add or delete anything.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on tremolo

    Many of the modern sheet music of Baroque era music and even later had many additions including dynamics, slurs, fingerings, and other notation added much later. Often these were added and were instrument-specific. For mandolin i much prefer to read urtext editions which should be taken directly from the composer’s manuscript.
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    Default Re: Thoughts on tremolo

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon DS View Post
    When you guys say tremolo I guess you’re talking about 6 beats per quarter? 3 per eighth?
    How can you tell? There are lots of features in my technique that I'm not aware of. E.g., I used to feject the common suggestion of picking both strings in the pair on the downstroke, and one on the upstroke. Checking more closely it seems that that's what I'm doing myself, yet sounding both strings on both the D and the U.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on tremolo

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    Apart from Bach and vivaldi being Baroque composers - Beethoven was quoted as saying to play exactly what he wrote - not to add or delete anything.
    Beethoven was actually widely known as a great improvisationalist during his time. The mantra of playing music exactly as written didn’t dominate classical music until much later in the 1800s and wasn’t limited to Baroque. Now most conductors go crazy if strings aren’t all bowing in the same direction! And who would ever think that codenzas would ever be notated in a score! I’m not sure if that quote attributed to Beethoven is real or made up to support the ruling dogma! Anyway, going back to the subject at hand, I agree that the type of tremolo should be at the discretian of each player.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on tremolo

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon DS View Post
    When you guys say tremolo I guess you’re talking about 6 beats per quarter? 3 per eighth?
    That depends upon the speed of the quarter notes. Tremolo is fast repetition, the actual speed is variable.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on tremolo

    I think it is like most choices in music: One, the fact that you can doesn’t automatically make it a good idea. Two, it depends.

    Because we are a mandolin orchestra, all the people in the same part need to tremolo and not tremolo in the same places. I think we tend to use tremolo less often than we might as soloists, because “clean” sound and synchronization are harder. It depends on the song, the style, and what musical your part serves. As mandocello I use tremolo very rarely, because rhythm is usually a big part of my role.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on tremolo

    Quote Originally Posted by Pittsburgh Bill View Post
    For me it depends on what I'm playing and if I am playing by myself or with others.
    I often do not use it for quarter notes but instead for any note longer than a quarter note as mandolins do not offer the sustain needed in some tunes.
    I have seen notation with tremolo noted with slash line across the note's stem.
    Try playing the Beatle's Norwegian Wood Instrumental part with out tremolo on any note longer than a quarter note for example. This is just one example of where tremolo would not work just using it for quarter notes. (is it possible you meant not using tremolo for any note shorter than a quarter note?)
    In this context, to me at least , "beyond" means "longer than". Seems to me that to some people tremolo is to be used anything longer than a quarter note.

    Not sure what I would do on a tune like Norwegian Wood -- probably play it on the guitar instead, my main instrument.

    Several years ago I tried to work out an arrangement to "Only you", but realizing I would have to use an almost continuous tremolo, I gave up the idea and wrote a contrafact intead, i.e., a melody based on the same chords (like There Will Never Be Another You or Baby's Coming Home).

    To illustrate the extremes, on Mando Hangout I have posted one version of O, store Gud (another Swedish song, recorded in 1972), using no tremolo and Crossing the Cumberlands (version II, recorded in 1969) where my whole backup part is tremoloed and the two solos not at all.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on tremolo

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph johansson View Post
    How can you tell? There are lots of features in my technique that I'm not aware of. E.g., I used to feject the common suggestion of picking both strings in the pair on the downstroke, and one on the upstroke. Checking more closely it seems that that's what I'm doing myself, yet sounding both strings on both the D and the U.
    Well, there are two ways of playing alternate stroke. One is with a pick pointing upwards, and this will result in hitting just one string on the upstroke. The other with the pick perpendicular to the strings, more or less the same technique as tremolo, and this is something one should practise until one hits always both strings on the upstroke.

    The first technique (one string on upstroke) is for a light upstroke, when you are looking for an effect where the downstroke has an accent. However, when you want to play in a straight line, everything equal, it's important to hit both strings on the upstroke. With this technique you could also have an accent on the upstroke, when you play triplets DUDUDU.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on tremolo

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph johansson View Post

    Not sure what I would do on a tune like Norwegian Wood -- probably play it on the guitar instead, my main instrument.
    I agree that the mandolin is not the best instrument to use for Norwegian Wood, but a mandola or octave mandolin is, I think, the perfect instrument. Especially for the instrumental part utilizing tremolo on the longer held notes.
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    Default Re: Thoughts on tremolo

    Quote Originally Posted by Marguerite View Post
    Well, there are two ways of playing alternate stroke. One is with a pick pointing upwards, and this will result in hitting just one string on the upstroke. The other with the pick perpendicular to the strings, more or less the same technique as tremolo, and this is something one should practise until one hits always both strings on the upstroke.

    The first technique (one string on upstroke) is for a light upstroke, when you are looking for an effect where the downstroke has an accent. However, when you want to play in a straight line, everything equal, it's important to hit both strings on the upstroke. With this technique you could also have an accent on the upstroke, when you play triplets DUDUDU.
    I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "pointing up wards" or (even less) "perpendicular". With tremolo I'm pretty sure I pick both strings on the U, because I have to stay in the plane of the strings. In regular alternate picking on certain types of songs I tend to swing the eighths, and then I will probably pick just one string on the U (and stay very close to the other, yet leave it free to resonate). My point really was the perils of introspection. What kind of tremolo do I use? -- to find out i would have to record myself and play back at, say, half speed. There is one situation where introspeciton is possible: on some waltzes, in a sequence of three quarter notes, I will often tremulate the second one, and land on the third with a downstroke. In that case, the termolo will have to consist of four sixteenths.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on tremolo

    "The first technique (one string on upstroke) is for a light upstroke ..."

    "I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "pointing up wards" or (even less) "perpendicular".

    Marguerite is correct. She is describing a standard -- and extremely useful -- technique taught in modern German (Wuppertal) classical mandolin, see, for example, Marga Wilden-Huesgen's Technical Studies, or Gertrud Troester's two books, Technique on 8 Strings, Volumes 1 and 2. The single string upstroke requires that the plecturm to be slanted downwards towards the floor on the downstroke, roughly 45 degrees or so, such that on the upstroke, only a single string is plucked (2:1, as it is known). Whereas, also in modern German technique, the tremolo is played with the no "slant" in the plectrum, that is, perpendicular to the strings, so that both strings are plucked (2:2) That said, in the late 19th/early 20th century, the single string upstroke was known and used by some in playing tremolo, for example, Francia.
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    Default Re: Thoughts on tremolo

    Quote Originally Posted by Altmandw View Post
    Beethoven was actually widely known as a great improvisationalist during his time. The mantra of playing music exactly as written didn’t dominate classical music until much later in the 1800s and wasn’t limited to Baroque. Now most conductors go crazy if strings aren’t all bowing in the same direction! And who would ever think that codenzas would ever be notated in a score! I’m not sure if that quote attributed to Beethoven is real or made up to support the ruling dogma! Anyway, going back to the subject at hand, I agree that the type of tremolo should be at the discretion of each player.
    I see your point, but I was not referring to the solo piano music but to Beethoven's symphonic works.

    Indeed, like Bach and Mozart, he was a great improviser at the keyboard.

    " Now most conductors go crazy if strings aren’t all bowing in the same direction!"

    That's because it's necessary to have the strings play the same phrasing in orchestral music.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Finlay View Post
    Because we are a mandolin orchestra, all the people in the same part need to tremolo and not tremolo in the same places. I think we tend to use tremolo less often than we might as soloists, because “clean” sound and synchronization are harder.

    Even in jazz big bands, ensemble passages are played with the same phrasing and articulations as the music specifies, and as set by the section leader such as the 1st alto in the saxes.

    "And who would ever think that codenzas would ever be notated in a score! "

    Now, that part is spot on - originally these were places where the performer should play their own cadenzas, but somehow it became another place to play what someone else wrote.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on tremolo

    Ralph, Try playing the interlude to Norwegian Wood with and without tremolo. I used this tune as it was the first example of many that I thought of that just doesn't seem to me to work without tremolo.Click image for larger version. 

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    Default Re: Thoughts on tremolo

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    I see your point, but I was not referring to the solo piano music but to Beethoven's symphonic works.

    Indeed, like Bach and Mozart, he was a great improviser at the keyboard.

    " Now most conductors go crazy if strings aren’t all bowing in the same direction!"

    That's because it's necessary to have the strings play the same phrasing in orchestral music.




    Even in jazz big bands, ensemble passages are played with the same phrasing and articulations as the music specifies, and as set by the section leader such as the 1st alto in the saxes.

    "And who would ever think that codenzas would ever be notated in a score! "

    Now, that part is spot on - originally these were places where the performer should play their own cadenzas, but somehow it became another place to play what someone else wrote.
    David, I really appreciate your comments on many threads in MC, so please don't take my reply as being snarky or disrespectful when I just don't agree with all of your points on interpreting how "classical" music came to regard orchestration as evolving to crush improvisation. For example with Beethoven, when he talked about an "orchestra," it wasn't always about groups that have morphed into the number of instruments we now see. Beethoven was in fact one of the advocates, like Hayden, of chamber orchestras. This subject of the removal of improvisation is viewed differently by current music historians, and I'm leaning on the side that sees it grossly overstated and misunderstood unfortunately by many classical musicians.

    Since I began my musical journey as a classical violinist, with my teacher being Boris Sirpo who established the Portland Chamber Orchestra and advocated taking all published written music with a grain of salt, I respectfully think it's not at all necessary to have everyone in string sections bowing in unison. However, as the sections become much larger than what was normal originally in the genre, conductors tried various means to bend the genre to what they wanted to impose.

    The reason this subject is important with our current music trends is that the incorrect dogma has been stated too frequently that transcription can capture so-called accurate renditions of how to recreate all music. Without creating too long of a post, we can pass on the almost infinite reasons Western music notation doesn't work that way. My comments when asked about various transcriptions and instruction books for a broad range of music genres is to advocate using these only as a guide or tool to find your own voice (or more correctly your own musical expression) for techniques like tremolo.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on tremolo

    Quote Originally Posted by Altmandw View Post
    .......

    Since I began my musical journey as a classical violinist, with my teacher being Boris Sirpo who established the Portland Chamber Orchestra and advocated taking all published written music with a grain of salt, I respectfully think it's not at all necessary to have everyone in string sections bowing in unison. However, as the sections become much larger than what was normal originally in the genre, conductors tried various means to bend the genre to what they wanted to impose.

    The reason this subject is important with our current music trends is that the incorrect dogma has been stated too frequently that transcription can capture so-called accurate renditions of how to recreate all music. Without creating too long of a post, we can pass on the almost infinite reasons Western music notation doesn't work that way. My comments when asked about various transcriptions and instruction books for a broad range of music genres is to advocate using these only as a guide or tool to find your own voice (or more correctly your own musical expression) for techniques like tremolo.
    Well, I must say that when you explain it that way, I can agree with what you say in principle. Thank you.

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