Calling Lyon and Healy experts re label

[trevor]

I had three Lyon and Healys in today, A, B and C style!

I am hoping someone can enlighten on this label on the A style. I believe it to be early?

Also just to confirm, are all backs walnut, some of these look a bit like maple.

[Graham McDonald]

Don't know about the labels, but I had thought the bodies were all maple. There were three periods, so an early (1917-20) A would have the symmetrical points and a 13.75" scale, the later (1921-25ish) asymmetrical points and a 13" scale and the 1930s Washburn Deluxe Style A, which I think was made by Regal.

cheers

[brunello97]

Trevor, I am sitting with Keef Pleijsier's book on my lap looking at his collection of L+H labels (page 110 in my edition.) The large script overlay with swooping "L"--printed in black in your label over an image of the L+H factory--shows up on the 1925 label (which is not 'early'), but not before or after (at least in the collection Keef has reproduced.) Of course, this is a limited sample. Design details of the mandolin might offer more telling clues.

"The World's Largest Music House" and "Chicago, USA" also appear on this label--though the spacing between lines of type on your label is greater than the example Keef reproduces.

I can't draw any conclusions from these observations other to say that styles of type fonts, etc. on the labels changed along with L+H designs as far as I can tell.

Hopefully, Keef catches wind of this discussion and can weigh in, perhaps with more information beyond the scope of what he published some years back.

Mick

[Graham McDonald]

In the description of the labels for the A-B-C models Keef mentions that the 1917-23 label were a gold/yellow colour, which would seem to match the pic better than a light yellow label from 1922-28, so early is sounding more likely.

cheers

[mrmando]

Trevor, I am sitting with Keef Pleijsier's book on my lap looking at his collection of L+H labels (page 110 in my edition.) The large script overlay with swooping "L"--printed in black in your label over an image of the L+H factory--shows up on the 1925 label (which is not 'early'), but not before or after (at least in the collection Keef has reproduced.) Of course, this is a limited sample. Design details of the mandolin might offer more telling clues.

The question is whether or not it says "Washburn" on the label below "Chicago, USA." If it does, then yes, it's the label tagged "1925" on p. 110 and "1922 until 1928" on p. 111. But it looks as though, as you said, the leading is wider on this example, and there is no "Washburn," which means it is the earlier label described as "1917 until 1923" on p. 111 (but, sadly, not depicted on p. 110).

[trevor]

Thanks everyone, here's a few more photos.

[Graham McDonald]

A Lyon & Healy Style A from between 1921-1923 (going by Keef's dating of the labels). Body almost certainly maple. Up there in the top two or three of the most elegant mandolins ever built

cheers

[DavidKOS]

Lovely - am I the only one that like the L and H better than Gibsons? What a great design.

[brunello97]

Lovely - am I the only one that like the L and H better than Gibsons? .....

I don't think you are.

Mick

[CWRoyds]

Although I am partial to F5 style Mandolins, as they are so damn sexy, I must say that Lyon & Healy are my favorite designs in General. I just LOVE those smooth rounded pickguards and the violin scroll headstocks. They have such an elegant look to them. They just seem to scream "I am a very fine instrument". After I get my one high end F5, I am going to start collecting L & H mandolins. They are the ones I tend to go all gooey over.

[Timbofood]

There is something so delicate and genteel about those, just so beautiful, I have one on my wish list. The one you posted Trevor falls into the "mando candy" realm. I could just eat it!

[keef]

I think I know a little bit more now about this than in 2008..

There are (at least) three labels used on the style a-c mandos. These labels are also described in the Washburn book.

Label #1 has the wording 'makers of the highest grade musical instruments' on it - the other labels don't. Used between 1917 and somewhere in 1919.

Label #2 is the label containing a/o the wording 'made and guaranteed by' - in the background the fullerton factory can be seen (see the pic in post #1). Used between (around) 1919 and 1922-3.

Label #3: mostly looks like second label, but with 'Washburn' name added. 1922/3 to at least somewhere in the late 1920s. From around 1925 the style number on the label is no longer 'A', but '5283', etc. - the 52XX numbering for mandos started in 1925.

There seem to be a few style 5283 mandos with 'Tonk Bros' printed on the labels (you could call that 'Label #4), which would date to the post 1928 era.
I guess one of these is offered by Intermountain right now (ugly looking 'home depot' kind of back on it..).

BUT: you can find e.g. Styles A with label #3, and some Styles A with higher numbers still with label #2. LH used up all of the old labels, and phased these out even after the new labels had been introduced.

Overlaps for labels 1 and 2 are also possible I would guess. Hopefully more details in a not too distant future.

[atetone]

I have a 5283 with the Washburn Tonk label that is serial # 406.
It has a very dark brown back and sides.
The back is birdseye maple (lightly birdseye) and the sides are maple but not birdseye.
The pickguard does not have any Patent #s but does have a hole in it for an adjustable side clamp which looks like it could possibly be original but more than likely a homemade affair added by an owner. There is a screw hole drilled into the side of the mandolin to hold the clamp.
It does not have the pullout leg rest.
It does have the ebony stripe (or is that fibre like the pickguard) in the 3 piece neck and although there is a slight checking of the finish in the neck to headstock transition it has not ever been broken there like so many have.
The case that I have is probably the original in great condition but it is ridiculous and I wont use it.
If they are all like this then it is obvious why so many headstocks were broken.
You couldn't come up with a better way to break a headstock than this case is.
It is amazing that this neck didn't break due to the case.

[atetone]

I just did a quick bit of research and I did see another one of these mandolins with the same pickguard clamp affair so it appears as though the one on mine is probably not a home made pick guard clamp but probably a factory clamp.
I guess that is good news. Very rare maybe and not a case of someone ruining an original pickguard.
It is a 24 fret 13 inch scale.
With the Tonk label and that clamp I am guessing that this is a later build ?
Late twenties or early 30s ?
I will have to keep digging for more info.

[BiggT]

You are not the only one...I LOVE my Washburn

[atetone]

This is what the pickguard and clamp look like.
I am becoming convinced that they are original factory.

[atetone]

This is the only other image that I could find with a different mandolin with the same pickguard.

[atetone]

This is the label. I dont know what era it is from but this label plus the unusual pickguard and clamp make me think that it must be a later model, but I really dont know.

[mrmando]

I'd have to check keef's book to be certain, but I believe the Tonk Bros. label dates it to about 1928. It's conceivable that they could have started using a side clamp around then. Is the pickguard still made of vulcanized fiber or does it appear to be something else?

[atetone]

Martin the pickguard is still the fibre material which I confirmed by comparing it to a pickguard from a style C.
Another thing that I notice is that the neck is 3 piece but the center strip is wood,,, not fibre.
I think this is different than earlier models?

[mrmando]

Yes, on earlier ones the neck had a center strip of vulcanized fiber. I'm sure it was a lovely sort of material appropriate for many household uses, but I can't help wondering whether those center strips contribute to the large number of headstock breaks we see on those old instruments.

[atetone]

Martin the fibre strip might be one of the reasons for all of the broken headstocks but I have a different theory at the top of my list.
The original case!
I couldnt believe it when I first went to put mine back into the case.
The tuner buttons rest upon the inner fabric ok but directly under that is the solid plywood sides of the case.
There is virtually no padding to protect the neck and as a matter of fact it is the exact opposite.
You couldnt design a better way to break those delicate necks.
Mine will never go into that original case again. I have been lucky in that mine never broke and I am going to do my best to keep it that way.

[mrmando]

Martin the fibre strip might be one of the reasons for all of the broken headstocks but I have a different theory at the top of my list.
The original case!

Indeed. Sold a nice Style B with original case to my pal David and the first thing he did was retire the case. The old Eastman fiberglass cases are perfect for a Style B, BTW.

Old Gibson cases have a similar lack of protection, but Gibson mandolins don't use the fiber as a structural material, and my anecdotal impression is that a lower percentage of them suffer headstock breaks.

[Steve Weeks]

For what it's worth to this discussion, here is the label from my Style B. I believe it's a fairly early one... between 1918 and 1920. I took it to Washburn International, which was located here in Mundelein, Illinois, for a few years until recently. They couldn't tell me with any certainty when it had been made, but it was older than the one they had on display.
Steve

[Bob A]

Scale length is also an indicator of age. IIRC, the earlier ones were 13", later went to nearly 14". Or the other way around? Someone will know.