TOH Weber warranty

[Phil Goodson]

How much Orville Gibson 'content' is in a Les Paul guitar???

[Bob Clark]

I am not certain that there is 'no' original Weber content in the TOH Webers. Design means a lot in these instruments and other than the recent neck joint design change, I'll bet Bruce's finger prints are still all over the designs. In addition to the value of the name, I would guess TOH valued the intellectual property Bruce held in those designs. Good for him for being able to monetize that, if that is what he wanted to do.

I have had several 'Bruce' Webers and loved them. I would buy one of his Montana Luthiery instruments in a heartbeat if that was what I was in the market for.

I would also buy a TOH Weber as readily, if that was what I was in the market for. Not for the name on the headstock, but for the quality of the build and the integrity of the design.

I have no doubt that both builders are supplying great instruments. More for us players to choose from. How can that be a bad thing?

[Timbofood]

I don’t tend to buy much of anything based on its warranty but, it’s initial quality, if they offer a fantastic warranty generally I never expect to use it. What’s the beef? Bruce says he will take care of things prior to company sale date. See post 48, thanks Steve.
TOH will honor items after the sale date, quit complaining and go play some music!

If I were to buy a Rolls, I’d hunt up an older one, just to offer an opinion on that.

[MontanaMatt]

If I were to buy a Rolls, I’d hunt up an older one, just to offer an opinion on that.

I would skip the fancy car, buy a second small home, and fill it with nice mandolins...and still have money left for touring with the band!

[Jeff Mando]

I remember taking a sales course, 45+ years ago and the instructor stressed to NEVER sell something on its guarantee, because the next question a person asks is, "Is something going to go wrong with it?"

Twice, I've had the chance to buy a previously owned Rolls Royce at a "workingman's price" -- both were clean 70's models, one was $5000 and the other was $10,000. BOTH TIMES the person selling them advised me against the purchase, saying RR parts and maintenance will bankrupt you. I passed both times, but was very curious to find out for myself.....

[pops1]

I remember taking a sales course, 45+ years ago and the instructor stressed to NEVER sell something on its guarantee, because the next question a person asks is, "Is something going to go wrong with it?"

Twice, I've had the chance to buy a previously owned Rolls Royce at a "workingman's price" -- both were clean 70's models, one was $5000 and the other was $10,000. BOTH TIMES the person selling them advised me against the purchase, saying RR parts and maintenance will bankrupt you. I passed both times, but was very curious to find out for myself.....

In that time frame the car was made with extra parts. The factory would keep doors, hood, trunk etc. all painted with the same paint, same leather interior, so it would look right if you got into an accident. Also included a trip to the factory to learn maintenance. Of course that was supposed to be for the chauffeur. Yea parts are expensive.

[Br1ck]

From what info I can gather, and the few I've played, Webers are still good quality mandolins. If there were any degradation in quality,
their quality dealers would abandon them. I don't see this happening.

Bruce Weber sold the rights to his name. He's probably very happy. I can understand Weber loyalists being bent out of shape. Heck, I've got a 65 Epiphone Texan guitar. People on one hand tell me it's not a real Epiphone because it was made by Gibson, others tell me they have one too, bought new yesterday for $400. And there are countless electronics names being marketed that bear no resemblance to the quality products of the past.

And if I were running Martin, I'd take the Martin name off half the guitars they are making. I'd probably run Martin into the ground doing stuff like that. So come back and complain when TOH brings on an import Weber line.

[Bruce D. Weber]

Hi guys! I think I finally have enough information from TOH to post some facts on Weber warranties prior to 2013.

1. TOH will continue to honor minor warranty repairs to the original owner as was stated at the time of purchase.
2. In lieu of doing a major warranty repair, TOH will offer a 40% discount on a new instrument.
3. If you pass on the offer you’ll need to find a shop other than TOH to do the repair at your expense.
4. Bruce and Mary Weber, and Montana Lutherie, are not responsible for Weber warranty.

For all you Bend hippies: If I’ve miss stated something here please let me know directly and I’ll correct my post.

Sorry for all the confusion folks.

[Bruce D. Weber]

Oops, I just noticed my signature still says Weber Fine Acoustic Instruments.

[Buck]

Hi guys! I think I finally have enough information from TOH to post some facts on Weber warranties prior to 2013.

1. TOH will continue to honor minor warranty repairs to the original owner as was stated at the time of purchase.
2. In lieu of doing a major warranty repair, TOH will offer a 40% discount on a new instrument.
3. If you pass on the offer you’ll need to find a shop other than TOH to do the repair at your expense.
4. Bruce and Mary Weber, and Montana Lutherie, are not responsible for Weber warranty.

For all you Bend hippies: If I’ve miss stated something here please let me know directly and I’ll correct my post.

Sorry for all the confusion folks.

Bruce, thanks for the update. It's nice to have clarity and while I can understand disappointment that instruments made prior to 2013 will not be fully supported, I think the risk is low at this point. Anything major likely to go wrong will already have done so. My '99 Big Sky is about to hit the 20 year mark. Pretty sure all is well...but I am about ready for new frets. Would have needed that long ago if my Bluegrass career had flourished. Thankfully I found my niche as an engineer. It's good to be good at something!

Gratuitous photo of my Big Sky...still my "go to" mandolin.

[Br1ck]

Just to know from you who do repair work, wouldn't the 40% off likely to be far more than any repair cost?

[Jeff Mando]

Just to know from you who do repair work, wouldn't the 40% off likely to be far more than any repair cost?

I guess it depends on how they figured it, kinda like a trade-in on a new car, I'm guessing. So mandolin for mandolin, same model or upgrade? Is the "new mandolin price" MSRP or online discount price or 40% of TOH cost? So, sure, at any rate 40% sounds like a pretty good discount to promote sticking with Weber. Let's say a new $2000 instrument for $1200 -- does sound pretty good, if we are indeed talking apples to apples......

As far as repair goes, I work for a shop that bills my time at $65 an hour to the customer, similar to what a car dealer charges for repair. Most of the work is in the range of $180-375, I'm guessing. If you get into refretting, necksets, refinishing, etc. estimates of $750-1275 are not uncommon. But, in general 40% of new cost buys a lot of repair work.

[multidon]

Probably the 40 percent is off the MSRP. Full retail is what you’ll pay if you order directly from Weber. I don’t know what kind of deal TOH has with their dealers, but I know before the sale Weber dealers could sometimes discount. If it was hanging up in the store ( as most instruments do anyway) they could sell it as a “demo” or “shopworn”. I know I got one of mine for 20 percent off MSRP, and the other was around 35 percent off MSRP. And the dealer still made money. And Weber still made money. I figure that’s true because seldom does anything get sold for a loss in our capitalist system. The music business is just that, a business, and making money is the name of the game. I suspect that, if they give you 40 percent off of the MSRP of an instrument, they are still making some money. Not nearly as much, but some. So not that big a deal, since it’s not too difficult to get 20 to 35 percent off just through wheeling and dealing with the store.

[Bill McCall]

Given that TOH legally doesn’t have to do anything, I think they’re being quite generous.

My 98 Absaroka doesn’t need anything though.

[Ivan Kelsall]

I'd personally like to thank Bruce himself for clarifying the matter,
Ivan

[multidon]

I really wouldn’t choose the word “generous” to describe this policy.

Think about it for a minute. Pull it apart and think about each little bit logically. First, yes, it’s true that legally, they don’t have to do a thing. It’s obvious that they don’t want to do major repairs under the old warranty. Why? Well, what’s a more profitable use of their emloyees’ time? Doing major warranty repairs, from which they make nothing, or building instruments, which they can sell for big bucks? Obviously, they want their people making instruments, not doing “free” repairs. Time is money you know.

But even though they aren’t obligated, this policy is a public relations nightmare. Lots of folks bought Weber instruments in good faith thinking they would be covered by a “lifetime” warranty. Of course lots of people take that “lifetime” thing seriously. But this situation is a great example of what can go wrong. My late father, when buying something with a “lifetime” warranty, used to ask the salesperson “Whose lifetime?”. I always thought it was funny when the salesperson would give him the dumb look. He would go on to ask “My lifetime? Your lifetime? The lifetime of what I’m buying? Your store’s lifetime? The lifetime of the company that made it?”.

Great points! But I digress. When they came up with this policy, they knew there would be angry owners out there. And angry owners might start saying bad stuff about the company. And that might start hurting sales. So, I’m sure they asked themselves “What can we do to placate these people, and still have the minimum effect on our bottom line?”. And so they came up with this 40 percent discount. Genius! We don’t have to waste any employee time having them do difficult, time- consuming “free” work. We can keep them doing what makes us the most money- making more instruments to sell. And if we give them the 40 percent discount, well, they’ll feel like they got something, we’ll move more inventory, and we’ll still make some money in the process! Not as much as we usually do, but something is better than nothing!

To me, to reiterate the obvious, this is a perfect lesson in why you shouldn’t trust any warrranty. Not just instruments, but just in general, companies don’t care about you. They don’t care about dissatisfied customers. Maybe they used to, in the good old days, but the world is different now.

[Buck]

I really wouldn’t choose the word “generous” to describe this policy.

Agreed.

To me, to reiterate the obvious, this is a perfect lesson in why you shouldn’t trust any warrranty. Not just instruments, but just in general, companies don’t care about you. They don’t care about dissatisfied customers. Maybe they used to, in the good old days, but the world is different now.

Agreed, but with the added thought that it's not just whether companies care, but whether or not they can make good on warranties. Companies, small companies in particular, can and do go out of business or otherwise hit hard times and may be unable more than unwilling. It doesn't change the idea that you buy for quality, but there are reasons beyond caring that affect warranties.


All that said, this doesn't lower my opinion of TOH. It does support my already low opinion.

[Ted Eschliman]

There's a fine line between criticism and slander. Both agents at the top level of this dispute have registered with the courtesy of an official response to the topic and all the continued speculating and criticism will not change the players or the game. It's time to move on and find something else to critique something that can't be fixed simply by bickering about it on the internet.