Alternative mandolin tuners - Waverly are not the only solution

[mandolin tony]

boy would I love to see some good close up pictures.

[RustyMadd]

Yes, instead of weak descriptions and endless speculations why don't you just prove and explain everything in one fell swoop? Post a photo or two of the damaged tuner. EVERYONE has access to a digital camera especially someone that is spending 3KCanadian.

Photos please.

[John Flynn]

I put a set of slotted-headstock Rubners on an OM I had. They were great. I think they are the smoothest, most consistent tuners out there. Every tuner turned with the same feel and effort. I think they are some of the best tuners out there. I only have limited experience with Waverly's and they are great, but IMHO not worth the extra money.

[colorado_al]

The first run of Rubner F style tuners had a thin plate that was a bit flexy. The more recent ones have a more robust plate.

[Bob Clark]

I have Rubners on my recent Mike Black piccolo mandolin. Smoothest tuners I have had, plus they look great. No complaints from me. I'd go with Rubners again in a heartbeat.

[Daniel Nestlerode]

Thought these might be helpful... They're Rubners on the Vessel mandolin. Not a thing wrong with them, though.

Daniel

[mandroid]

So this is an all Rubner fan club thread.. ?

[colorado_al]

So this is an all Rubner fan club thread.. ?

n-1 apparently

[Denman John]

Let me start by saying that I have no experience with Rubner tuners, but hold them in high regards from what I've heard and seen online. I would love to have a look at them in person, but that hasn't happened yet. I've had Waverly on a few instruments and were/are excellent. Recently two of the tuner buttons stripped on a newish mandolin and were replaced promptly. They were A style tuners which don't have a screw that allows you to change buttons like the F style tuners do. They were a G and D tuner buttons on the same plate, so maybe it was a bad batch? I called the builder and the next day a new set were sent from Waverly. I replaced them and sent the old ones back at no expense. Great customer service in my books!

The nicest tuners I've used are a set of Alessi's that are on my OM. Beautiful engraving and the smoothest I've come across. They were a bit pricey but they are on an instrument that I really enjoy and use regularly. It's kind of a shame that you don't use a set of good tuners very much if they do their job properly. Part of the whole.

[Eric Platt]

Put a set of Rubners on my Eastman octave. They hold the tuning just fine.

Just had to pull a set of Waverly tuners off my Gibson J-35 (modern version). One ivoroid button just started spinning and came off. Sigh. On went a set of Gotoh 3 on a plate that I had sitting in my parts bin. Had purchased the guitar used and they were already installed.

[MontanaMatt]

Put a set of Rubners on my Eastman octave. They hold the tuning just fine.

Just had to pull a set of Waverly tuners off my Gibson J-35 (modern version). One ivoroid button just started spinning and came off. Sigh. On went a set of Gotoh 3 on a plate that I had sitting in my parts bin. Had purchased the guitar used and they were already installed.

Did you contact Waverly or Stewmac for a replacement?

[MontanaMatt]

I’m a Waverly fan. They are made in our town, Bozeman, and my bandmate (Jim) is the guy putting them together.

[Eric Platt]

Did you contact Waverly or Stewmac for a replacement?

Nope. Because I'm not the original owner of the tuners (nor the guitar). And it happened on Saturday morning.

[colorado_al]

Nope. Because I'm not the original owner of the tuners (nor the guitar). And it happened on Saturday morning.

I bet they will still warranty them for you

[Eric Platt]

I bet they will still warranty them for you

They probably would. But I've already re-attached the button. Just frustrating as I'll have to spend another hour swapping tuners back and re-stringing the guitar. And that will have to wait until I have some free time.

[kurth83]

When I read these threads, the engineer in me crys out to be released. I try to hold back, but...

Tuning ratio:
schaller - I see some schallers at eldery at 16:1, but some of them are 14:1.
Alessi/rubner - 15:1 (a recent check showed those ratios for some models).
Grover - 18:1 - the reigning champ for ease of tuning, still undefeated.

And for reference the common ratio for guitar tuners is 24:1, but they come in different ratios too.

I came from the guitar world, and the first thing I noticed when I got my new mando was how hard they were to tune (it came with 14:1 - HORRIFYING, yes, I know).

Grovers were my first upgrade. And to me they feel like the ratio is still too low, wish there were some 24:1's out there to try. Supposedly Grover once made them, like 60 years ago.

It's basics physics, other than a very poorly made device, or one that isn't installed properly and is binding up, a 15:1 tuner will pretty much feel like any other 15:1 tuner (assuming same knob size/shape).

Why would I pay $400 for a set of 16:1 Waverly's when I can pay $75 for a set of 18:1 Grovers. I don't know.

Now, WRT the OP's issue, yeah, they should last forever and not break.

[Jeff Mando]

I tried to make the 24:1 ratio argument here years ago and got shot down, for some reason. Nobody seems to like 'em. Logic would dictate the higher the ratio, the more precise the ability to tune. Of course, it takes longer to crank 'em up to pitch, so that might be an issue for some........

And, just lack of available choices, in general.......

[Jeff Mando]

I should add, one thing I find very unappealing in modern tuners is the use of black button shafts with gold/chrome/nickel plates -- what is up with that? Reminds me of that sad 80's electric guitar era when guitar hardware went black........ugly, IMHO. Mixed with gold and chrome --even worse. Especially on an instrument like a mandolin with so many nods to the past by its very nature.....

[HoGo]

I just had a go at two sets of GA tuners. They don't turn super easy but not stiff either. When the cog is removed the worm turns with exactly the same resistance so all that is in the bearing surfaces. I guess they are first riveted together and then plated so the plating fills the bearing surfaces a bit. I just put a drop of polishing compound to the whole assembled tuner and turned the hell out of them with drill (till they started to smoke - really, 3000rpm for a minute or so...).
Then washed clean lubed with WD40 and they have nearly no resistance. I heard Mike Kemnitzer used to do this to all tuners that went on his mandolins.
The cog/post aseembly has no resistance as it is loose fit and small spring washer under the plate keeps it tight.

[HoGo]

When we do a little calculation we have approx. 5mm diameter post where string winds on, 10mm diameter of cog where the teeth engage, then the reduction by 14-24 teeth then 5mm diameter of worm at contact point with cog, and finished with button where we can count 10mm diameter at point where we hold it with fingers. I hope I didn't miss something, but starting with 10 kg force at post (typical mandolin string tension ~2 pounds) we get 1/4 reduction just by the diameters plus the reduction of the worm/gears. That gives roughly 2.5kg force divided by gear ratio at your fingers. So for 1/14 you have 0.18kg force at fingertips (divide that by two as you hold the button at both sides) and 0.104kg for the extreme 1/24 gears. That is not really much to turn. So anything above that is the friction of the gears which is not much on well lubed tuners (and is pretty much the same for all types of tuners regardless of gear ratio - unless the size of cog is much larger, friction between cog and plate is minimal as well as the fit is loose and contact surface is large) and lastly friction caused by installation -which is in 99% the cause of malfunction or premature wear of tuners.
Since the typical bad friction caused by improper installation is at the post/cog side of the gears the higher ratio helps overcome it easier and create illusion that those gears are better, they are just better at MASKING the problems.

Edit: I just cannot find any common guitar tuners above 1:18 ratio... mostly 1:16 or lower (except those exotic Graphtechs with varying ratios)

[Hendrik Ahrend]

If I‘m not mistaken, Alessis changed from 15:1 to 16:1 ratio 6 years ago.

[foldedpath]

I tried to make the 24:1 ratio argument here years ago and got shot down, for some reason. Nobody seems to like 'em. Logic would dictate the higher the ratio, the more precise the ability to tune. Of course, it takes longer to crank 'em up to pitch, so that might be an issue for some........

I think I would find a high ratio like that annoying. I change strings fairly often, usually at least once a month, and I wouldn't want to spend even more time on that operation.

Another thing -- I always tune up to pitch, never down. Sometimes I'll overshoot, which means I have to go back down below the target pitch, and come back up again. It's not that hard with whatever the gear ratio is on my Waverleys (16:1?). I don't think the extra turns with a higher ratio would make that any easier. Might even take longer.

This is just theory-craft because I've never used high ratio tuners on a mandolin, but I'm just not seeing any major problems with the gear ratio I'm using now.

I should add, one thing I find very unappealing in modern tuners is the use of black button shafts with gold/chrome/nickel plates -- what is up with that? Reminds me of that sad 80's electric guitar era when guitar hardware went black........ugly, IMHO. Mixed with gold and chrome --even worse. Especially on an instrument like a mandolin with so many nods to the past by its very nature.....

Yeah, you're not alone there. I don't like the look of those black shafts. It has no practical purpose, it's just a visual effect. I like the cleaner look of all gold or all chrome tuning machines. That's just personal taste though, and we all have different ideas about mandolin aesthetics. It would be boring (and less opportunity for different suppliers) if we all liked the same thing.

[mandroid]

You down shift to go up a hill..
As a Mechanic, I'd call 24:1 , a lower gear ratio, not a higher... than say, 16:1..
1/24th is smaller than 1/16th

Harmony Used to have a Low gear tuner ..
but the thin teeth on the round gear broke off..

a bigger round gear wouldn't do that but then
it would not be interchangeable with its competitor's tuners..

in the market place , inclined to stay 'like the old days'..










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[yankees1]

I have Rubner on my Girouard A and love them ! Looks and function flawless ! I am having Rubner tuners placed on my future Girouard F4 in 2019 so I hope they will be as good.

[LongBlackVeil]

Id like to get some rubners. But im not sure if they will fit my gibson a9. Not even sure what type of tuners it has