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Thread: Take A Hint?

  1. #1
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    Default Take A Hint?

    Back in the early 2000's, after working for 20 years as a bass player in bands, and 10 years as a solo multi-instrumentalist, singer-songwriter, I decided that I wanted to specifically concentrate on the mandolin and try to get work as a mandolin player. Within 6 months the band I played in for 15 years broke up, my solo gigs completely dried up, I hit a LONG period of severe writers block and I never got a nibble for work as a mandolinist.

    Fast forward to early last year. I was once again strongly determined to concentrate on my mandolin playing, and try to find work as a mandolin player. Ever since then a few people have stared to inquire about my work as a solo artist and guitar player, I have started to almost effortlessly write songs again, and I have hardly had time to open my mandolin case.

    So - the rhetorical question is: Do you think that maybe the mandolin gods are trying to tell me something?

  2. #2
    Doc Ivory Doc Ivory's Avatar
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    Default Re: Take A Hint?

    Congrats on making it thru the shallow times.
    I know it's of no help what-so-ever but we all go thru them to varying degrees. As for me, there are times that a long rest from playing or anything musical is the only way to refresh my mind and get my head in the game fully again.
    Those times are rare but I find them necessary.""
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  3. #3
    Mediocre but OK with that Paul Busman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Take A Hint?

    I've often found that one way to overcome a block is to step back from the problem for a while. Trying too hard often makes the situation worse. Working on mandolin might have helped overcome the writer's block.

    Why not combine writing and mandolin? Write some songs to be played on mandolin and play them at your guitar gigs. That would help give your mandolin playing some exposure. Be sure to post video here!
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    Default Re: Take A Hint?

    Maybe it's just the opposite. Assuming you've been playing mandolin this whole time, it is possible that it was the mandolin gods who created these new opportunities. I think the safest next move is to continue to appease these gods and buy a new (to you) mandolin.

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    Lurkist dhergert's Avatar
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    Default Re: Take A Hint?

    Not sure what venues and genre you're working on, but in my experience, a person has to be extraordinarily and/or uniquely skilled (although not necessarily supremely excellent) with what they do with mandolin, banjo, dobro and guitar to be called upon for gigs.

    Bass players, fiddlers, singers, keyboardists and drummers seem to be foundational and are called upon if they're good at all. Solo instrumentalists who sing seem to also get calls, but mostly for solo work, not to sit in with bands.

    I love playing mandolin but mostly for light solo or backup work. My main instrument is banjo, but also play at dobro, and I'm currently moving strongly into upright bass and enjoying it tremendously. Fortunately I'm now retired and not dependent on music earnings, so I can just play what I want to play.

    I might add, one of our close musician friends told us he was one of about 20 players to audition for an upright bass position with a local entertainment company. He was the only one who could sight-read music fluently, and he got the position. Our band's fiddler also sight reads fluently, and she also gets called often. Although I personally can't sight read, I'm sure that reading music fluently helps get music jobs for those who want them, no matter the instrument or genre.

    Especially in entertainment-center cities, competition for music jobs is very high and those people who get the jobs tend to have extraordinary skills.
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    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Take A Hint?

    Quote Originally Posted by dhergert View Post
    I might add, one of our close musician friends told us he was one of about 20 players to audition for an upright bass position with a local entertainment company. He was the only one who could sight-read music fluently, and he got the position. Our band's fiddler also sight reads fluently, and she also gets called often. Although I personally can't sight read, I'm sure that reading music fluently helps get music jobs for those who want them, no matter the instrument or genre.
    When I was teaching guitar and bass, a student asked me :what's it worth to me to bother learning to read? All the bands I play in play by ear."

    I said, "As long as you work in rock and country bands, that's OK - but if you want theater, show band, studio, jazz, classical gigs, etc. you need to read. What was learning to read music worth to me? thousands of dollars in gigs."

    The student became a good reader.

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  8. #7
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    Default Re: Take A Hint?

    Almost no band needs a mandolin. Almost every band needs a bass.
    If someone had said those 2 sentences to me 25 years ago, my decisions and gigging experience would have been very different.
    There are more opportunities now as a mandolin player compared to 25 years ago, but still very few compared to bass. Unless you're in a purely bluegrass band, that has been my experience.
    I've found that if I want to play the mandolin in a gigging situation, it needs to be a band that I start and manage, and build around having a mandolin.
    Even so, on the dates that we land a gig that I cannot do, the band still plays without a mandolin and makes money without me. If we land a gig when our bass player can't be there, we scramble to find a bass player to fill in so that we can play. If we land a gig when our singer can't be there, nobody works.

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    Registered User Jill McAuley's Avatar
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    Default Re: Take A Hint?

    I've found myself in a similar situation where, after a 10 year hiatus from playing the guitar (sold all my guitars, became obsessed with tenor banjo and mandolin) I picked up an acoustic guitar again back in April and haven't looked back! Writing tons of songs again and back playing as good as ever after an initial few weeks of rustiness. I think it's great not to lose your chops on an instrument you've played before in the past, so a big hurrah to you picking up your guitar again! Of course in my case it means that I now check out the guitar listings in the classifieds, and already have a guitar being built for me! It's a double edged sword!
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    Default Re: Take A Hint?

    I can say a few word on process - I've mused on this some, since about age 10..

    Talking about eschewing (or trying to..) ... a few years ago, thinking that I was quitting studying accordian, I actually paid to ship my vintage instr to someone

    I continue to be amused about that one - now of course seeking to find that model again! I've given away stringed instr, amps, drum kits...but never regretting those. Something weird about a box I guess. Meh, it's all weird.

  11. #10
    Mando-Afflicted lflngpicker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Take A Hint?

    Mike, My journey is similar to yours in that I spent my life as a performer and songwriter, playing acoustic guitar accompaniment-- both flat picking and finger picking. I added the mandolin five years ago and found it met a different need. I really enjoy it as an instrument and though I have used it in performance situations, it is what it brings to my life as an older guy that I can learn and enjoy at home that I value most. I find myself trying to schedule guitar days and mandolin days, but I tend to do as you do, get on binges where I sing and write on my guitar and then I will start learning things on the mandolin. I think if you are like me, you will favor what is in demand by your audiences. If they want your songwriter side, give them that and fold in some mandolin accompaniment. I don't think you will be able to let go of either? That is true for me, so ride that wave brother!
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    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Take A Hint?

    Quote Originally Posted by colorado_al View Post
    Almost no band needs a mandolin.

    ......Unless you're in a purely bluegrass band, that has been my experience.
    I've been in Italian bands where the mandolin and accordion were the main instruments...sometimes the only instruments.

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  14. #12

    Default Re: Take A Hint?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    I've been in Italian bands where the mandolin and accordion were the main instruments...sometimes the only instruments.
    Fiddle and box - get a lot of mileage from that.

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    Default Re: Take A Hint?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    I've been in Italian bands where the mandolin and accordion were the main instruments...sometimes the only instruments.
    No doubt. Thanks for the reminder! If only I played Italian music...

  16. #14
    Registered User Bob Visentin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Take A Hint?

    [QUOTE=colorado_al;1683365]Almost no band needs a mandolin. Almost every band needs a bass.

    I figured this out forty years ago. I was asked to play bass in a bluegrass band and being a mandolin play and a former classical tuba player in high school I knew both the music and the bass players job. With just two weeks of bass practice and two band rehearsals I made enough money to buy the Fender bass I had borrowed that summer.

    All my friends know me as a bass player and are surprised when I play the mando which I mostly play by myself.

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    Default Re: Take A Hint?

    About forty years ago, I bought an electric bass so I could jam with friends. We all played guitar so I thought if we formed a band we'd need a bass. Played it exclusively for the next 25 years. I was a better guitar player than many a guitarist I played with.LOL

    The guy I know that gigs the most plays keys, mandolin, guitar, bass fiddle, a little pedal steel, and drums. Plays them well. Knows others who play multiple instruments and can swap during gigs. My dream scenario, find musicians who are singers, and multi instrumentalists who also write. One of my favorite bands is Willie Sugarcapps. Don't know if they are still together. Swap around on instruments to suit the song. My idea of fun.

    I see these "utility" players that can play three or four instruments in one show. My kind of musician.
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    Default Re: Take A Hint?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    When I was teaching guitar and bass, a student asked me :what's it worth to me to bother learning to read? All the bands I play in play by ear."I said, "As long as you work in rock and country bands, that's OK - but if you want theater, show band, studio, jazz, classical gigs, etc. you need to read. What was learning to read music worth to me? thousands of dollars in gigs. The student became a good reader.
    I answer that question " if all you want to know is your little bit of music, no desire to expand and learn something just for learning sake, reading music will not benefit you at all". I play bluegrass only and have played in a busy semi local BG gospel band for years. I play 99.9% by ear but I have never found what little I know of written music or theory to hinder me in any way.

  19. #17
    Registered User Eric Platt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Take A Hint?

    Huh. Started on guitar when I physically couldn't play bass any longer. Severe tendonitis problems. Thankfully a lot of the old time music scene in this area has a guitar in it. So was able to slip in and join the jams and the occasional band. 20 years later, started playing mandolin. Still working on getting tolerable at it. While I'm in a band and also take the mandolin to jams, I know it will be many years before I'm tolerable. Let alone good. And still have a tough time finding other jams where I can sit in on the mandolin. Most folks would still prefer I play guitar. Although the demise of my last band really emphasized that I'm not really that good at it.

    As to reading music. Been doing it for over half a century. But still wish I was better at it. There's no way I'd ever get hired for a gig because of my reading ability. Still terrible at sight reading while transposing to a different key. And the alto and tenor clef still trip me up.

    Oh, and with the accordion - for a while I had a duo of mandolin and accordion to play Scandinavian folk music. In fact, we played a contest at the Minnesota State Fair this year. So it can be done.
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    Default Re: Take A Hint?

    Bobby McFarren, an honorary doctorate at the Peabody Conservatory, addressed my daughter's graduating class. He reminded all these classically trained musicians that 90% of the world's music was not written down. Nonetheless, 100% of her non teaching income is sight reading.

    She gets hired a lot when a singer comes to town and they hire a string section for two nights at the Hollywood Bowl. They do a half hour rehearsing intros. The rest is sight reading in front of a full house.
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  21. #19

    Default Re: Take A Hint?

    Wrt OP: it all goes around Mike..

    I'm aiming to install new strings on mndln today - 1st time in prbly 7 or 8 or more years - I guess I'm aiming to play it, er, again ..

    So amid boxes and bins and baskets and layers of bells, whistles, oud picks, pegheads, mouthpieces, cork grease, tuning wrenches, wires and ...I need to find a peg winder!! 10 years ago, everything was buried under layers of them and that stuff. .
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    Default Re: Take A Hint?

    Nice, I don't have a set...l've got sets of everything else! But no. (Dejectedly reinstalling 7 or 8 year-old string..)

  23. #21
    Registered User mbruno's Avatar
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    Default Re: Take A Hint?

    My recommendation if you wanna play more mandolin and get called more for more gigs - just play more.

    Go to every open mic, open jam, musical association, music festival, etc that you can. Bring business cards with your name, email, phone number, instruments you play, and something that says "I'm for hire" very clearly. Say hello to everyone you meet there and remember names.

    Play outside for no one. I'm at the beach or a coffee shop every weekend I'm in town playing music for myself (mostly studying new stuff or just goofing off). I've picked up a lot of gigs just sitting around playing outside. Bringing friends (and other musicians) can help attract a crowd too.

    Create a website with video and audio of you playing. Promote that site.

    Learn some lesser played songs that are fun and aren't just 1 4 5 tunes. A great part of going to festivals is learning these tunes.

    Play your originals often (hopefully they aren't jam busters) and let people know they are yours.

    Take every compliment with a grain of salt. Take every criticism like there's at least a hint of truth - work your tail off to eliminate the issue - and make it a strong point for you.

    Really - just play. Get your name out there and don't be shy. If you see someone better than you, gravitate towards them and study (even record if that's okay). If you see someone that needs help, give them some pointers - the karma comes back (and you never know when that person is going to need another band member).
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  25. #22
    Registered User Eric Platt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Take A Hint?

    Huh. Spent my time at 2 jams this week just playing guitar. At both of them, they didn't have someone that would just play rhythm guitar. So, fell back into my old habits. Plus, there were a couple of nationally known mandolin players at the 1st gathering. Last night, we just needed a rhythm guitar really bad. And I qualified and had the guitar on hand.

    My lack of self esteem in playing either instrument is getting to be a serious burden these days. It's like the call of "I'm not good enough" or "you're pathetic" is getting louder. And no matter how much I practice or play with others, it's not going away. Maybe it's a hint I need to just quit for a while.
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    Default Re: Take A Hint?

    Hang in there! Also took up mandolin in 2000, and have suffered many years of being asked to play guitar. Only in the last couple years have I joined a band where playing mandolin. Wow, did that help!

    So, have patience and trust that a band very likely will have you one day, and that you will have a ton of fun.

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    Default Re: Take A Hint?

    What is hard for some people to learn- My ability doesn't change if I'm playing with Thilie or some newbie that's only been playing 6months. If any one is too good to play with me that's their loss, just a its my loss to consider myself too good to play with anyone. I don't care who you're playing with watch and listen long enough and you'll learn something. Now I know you want to play with those of somewhat equal ability if you are working toward a performing band but for fun don't be afraid to play with those " better " than yourself, striving to reach their level will move you forward.

  28. #25
    Registered User mbruno's Avatar
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    Default Re: Take A Hint?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Platt View Post
    Huh. Spent my time at 2 jams this week just playing guitar. At both of them, they didn't have someone that would just play rhythm guitar. So, fell back into my old habits. Plus, there were a couple of nationally known mandolin players at the 1st gathering. Last night, we just needed a rhythm guitar really bad. And I qualified and had the guitar on hand.

    My lack of self esteem in playing either instrument is getting to be a serious burden these days. It's like the call of "I'm not good enough" or "you're pathetic" is getting louder. And no matter how much I practice or play with others, it's not going away. Maybe it's a hint I need to just quit for a while.
    First - playing what the Jam needs over what you want is an important part of being a musician. That said, in some cases (not all) you can get away with playing rhythm on the mandolin using the G and D strings primarily and playing the "guitar" part. Doesn't always work - but don't discount that.

    Second - I'm going to guess that you are comparing yourself to the other musicians in the jams you're around. If that's the case - that's your problem. There's ALWAYS someone better than you. I'm sure even if you asked Chris Thile, he'd be able to point to someone he believes is better than he is in some way. I live by the motto that I always want to be the worst person in the jam. When I first started playing, I got kicked out of a lot of jams (or at least told to hang back). But, by listening and copying the better players - I stopped getting kicked out and started getting invited in.

    The best advise I can give you is what I've gotten myself. In a nutshell
    1) So long as you don't derail the jam, life moves on so who cares what people think at a jam? Music is supposed to be fun - so have fun, learn, and enjoy.
    2) If you're not learning, you're not trying. You don't learn as much being the best - but you learn a lot being the worst. Copy everyone. Imitate then Innovate.
    3) If you get kicked out of a jam, listen to the reasons why - woodshed those skills until they are stronger, then go back to the jam and give them all the musical finger when you showcase your new skills. This one for me is my favorite. I've been told I suck at music my entire life - by some of my closest friends too (first musical job I had I was introduced with "we had to scrape the bottom of the barrel for this guy"). For me, being the stubborn person I am, I just use that as fuel to get better. Without being too boastful - I'm not a bad musician anymore (but I definitely was at points in my musical life)
    4) Everyone sucks at some point - whether you're new to mandolin or not. Even prodigies have their version of "suck" (though it's probably our version of "great" haha).
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