Cameronian Reel

[PH-Mando]

[Dave Hanson]

sounds more like a hornpipe to me, nice tune mind.

Dave H

[whistler]

sounds more like a hornpipe to me ...

PH-Mando plays it in a bit of a hornpipey style but in structure, it's a very typical reel. It's unmistakably a reel the way these lads from Galway play it:

https://youtu.be/VCUOI2mH5gg

[CarlM]

This comment may be slightly off topic but the title of this tune struck me because I have been reading Walter Scott's novel Old Mortality, which is based on one of the Scottish uprisings involving the Cameronian sect. A great read.

[HonketyHank]

Allllllll-right, PH. Good job.

[Jill McAuley]

Just curious if PH intended to play this as a hornpipe or as a reel? Some folks to like to turn reels into hornpipes (The Small Hills of Offaly is one tune that comes to mind - I've heard it played as both reel and hornpipe, though I'm fairly certain Paddy O'Brien wrote it as a reel). If the intention was to play it as a hornpipe, good on ye, if not then listening to that DeDannan version posted above will point you in the right direction as regards the feel of a reel.

[PH-Mando]

Hornpipe style appears to be the style intended in the book I used to learn it.

[HonketyHank]

Quite honestly, I tend to put a bit of swing into reels or reel-derived tunes. And admittedly, I can overdo it sometimes. I'm no great musician trying to put a personal stamp on anything; I just find a long string of eighth note pairs to be kind of bland (I wanted to say "monotonous" but thought better of it). So I can get hornpipy unintentionally sometimes.

[foldedpath]

Quite honestly, I tend to put a bit of swing into reels or reel-derived tunes. And admittedly, I can overdo it sometimes. I'm no great musician trying to put a personal stamp on anything; I just find a long string of eighth note pairs to be kind of bland (I wanted to say "monotonous" but thought better of it). So I can get hornpipy unintentionally sometimes.

The degree of swing can sometimes be a question of different genres of music. I've noticed local OldTime jams often put some swing into reels, while local Irish/Scottish groups never do.

It's partly just a difference in traditions, but it's also related to tempos. OldTime jams in my area don't play reels very fast, so there is time to get that dotted swing feel in the tune.

At a good Irish/Scottish dance tempo for reels, there just isn't time for any swing between the notes. It doesn't mean the steady 8th notes are boring, because there is always a pulse emphasizing either the 1 and 3 beats, or a backbeat 2 and 4 rhythm feel. Like this... one of my favorite clips of a pub session set of two reels, not too fast, and a great pulse to the music without any swing:





Something I notice in many mandolin player recordings and clips, is that when it comes to reels they're not really (reely?) playing up to full dance tempos. That's understandable for learners, but don't let slow tempos get too embedded in your tune memory. You might be surprised, once you start playing out with fiddlers and others trad players who are used to faster tempos for reels.

[PH-Mando]

Just curious if PH intended to play this as a hornpipe or as a reel? Some folks to like to turn reels into hornpipes (The Small Hills of Offaly is one tune that comes to mind - I've heard it played as both reel and hornpipe, though I'm fairly certain Paddy O'Brien wrote it as a reel). If the intention was to play it as a hornpipe, good on ye, if not then listening to that DeDannan version posted above will point you in the right direction as regards the feel of a reel.

I appreciate all the information shared by members of forum. I checked out your youtube channel. Very impressive repertoire!!!

[HonketyHank]

The degree of swing can sometimes be a question of different genres of music. I've noticed local OldTime jams often put some swing into reels, while local Irish/Scottish groups never do.

It's partly just a difference in traditions, but it's also related to tempos. OldTime jams in my area don't play reels very fast, so there is time to get that dotted swing feel in the tune.

At a good Irish/Scottish dance tempo for reels, there just isn't time for any swing between the notes. It doesn't mean the steady 8th notes are boring, because there is always a pulse emphasizing either the 1 and 3 beats, or a backbeat 2 and 4 rhythm feel. Like this... one of my favorite clips of a pub session set of two reels, not too fast, and a great pulse to the music without any swing:





Something I notice in many mandolin player recordings and clips, is that when it comes to reels they're not really (reely?) playing up to full dance tempos. That's understandable for learners, but don't let slow tempos get too embedded in your tune memory. You might be surprised, once you start playing out with fiddlers and others trad players who are used to faster tempos for reels.

Points well taken. Thanks. I would love to get any reel "up to speed" at my current stage of late childhood development. And I ca't play them "swingy" as fast as I can play them "straight". It's interesting how in the video the strong emphasis on the beat seems to take the place (and function) of the swing.

[whistler]

... OldTime jams often put some swing into reels, while local Irish/Scottish groups never do

It's partly just a difference in traditions, but it's also related to tempos. OldTime jams in my area don't play reels very fast, so there is time to get that dotted swing feel in the tune .... Like this... one of my favorite clips of a pub session set of two reels, not too fast, and a great pulse to the music without any swing:

Without any swing?? I hear lots of swing in that Martin Hayes clip - and in the De Danann clip that I linked to. Perhaps we have different definitions of 'swing' but they are most definitely not playing equal 1/8-notes.

This goes to show that the distinction between hornpipe and reel is about more than just note length ratios. The definitions may vary between traditions (e.g. Some Scottish reels are structured like what would be considered a hornpipe in Ireland, the Foula Reel from Shetland is actually a jig and an English 3/2 hornpipe is a different beast altogether from the type of hornpipe we are discussing) and there are anomalies within traditions but, in general, a hornpipe is structured differently to a reel. It is possible to play a reel as a hornpipe and vice versa, but this has more to do with rhythmic emphasis than tempo or 'dottedness'. In some parts of Ireland, hornpipes may be played with little or no swing yet, with 4 strongly accented beats per bar (as distinct from reels, which have their main accents on 1 and 3), are still recogniseable as hornpipes.

[foldedpath]

Without any swing?? I hear lots of swing in that Martin Hayes clip - and in the De Danann clip that I linked to. Perhaps we have different definitions of 'swing' but they are most definitely not playing equal 1/8-notes.

I hear the 1/8 notes in that Hayes video as steady, or equal if you like. The rhythm pulse is caused by varying the dynamic emphasis on the steady beats. There is a kind of 2-4 backbeat superimposed on the 1 and 3 beats.

To me -- and I think it's a fairly standard definition -- "swing" means a dotted eighths note feel. I don't hear it in that clip. There isn't enough time for it between each note, for one thing. But maybe we're just using different terminology, or hearing it differently?

[whistler]

But maybe we're just ... hearing it differently?

I think we must be. The fiddler to Martin Hayes' left, Mark Donnellan, is the single 'swingiest' fiddler I know in Irish music - I like to refer to him as 'The King of Swing'. But yes, maybe our definitions do differ somewhat. Simply playing in dotted rhythm does not equate to 'swing' for me - that is only part of it. The swing feel comes from beat emphasis as well - and a large part of it in fiddle playing (as exemplified by Mr. Donnellan) is slurring onto strong beats.

[foldedpath]

Whistler, we may be talking about a "swing" feel that carries across beat phrasing, not a dotted-eighth feel. Something we hear embedded in the phrasing over one or more bars? I can understand how that could be called swing instead of a straight-8 feel like in Bluegrass. I've never heard a Bluegrass band play reels this way.