What makes a mandolin play stiff?

[cap217]

I got a new to me mandolin and it’s just stiff. It’s setup the way my other is but I just have to press harder than normal to get the notes out of it. I’ve tried lowering the action, adjusting the relief with no luck. I’m now lowering it more and starting to get buzz when I dig in so I’ll obviosuy have to raise it back up.

This is a Kentucky 1050 and my first radiused board. The frets are a touch taller than my other and others I’ve played. I get .079” width and .038” high on the frets vs 0.79” wise and .0305” high in my other. I would think all of this would make it play easier.

So do I take it to another person for setup or should I consider 10-38 strings v the 11-40 I’m using? On a side note I went from 11-40 to 10-38 strings on my other mandolin. Then I realized that I should go back to 11-40 and tension felt the same. So im not convinced lighter strings will be the answer.

I’ve also read that guys like an instrument to give them a workout and it gets better tone and more precise fretting. So maybe I just need to suck it up?

[dadsaster]

I would make sure the nut slots are set correctly. If they are high, the first few frets are going to feel stiff. I don't think you will notice much of a difference between 11-38 and 11-40.

I have found that the more playable (lower action) an instrument, the better. What you may gain in tone from a taller bridge, you will lose by making fretting more difficult.

[itstooloudMike]

A good setup will usually include a fret leveling and a nut slot adjustment. Both are needed to get optimum playability with low action. A good setup by a competent tech, is well worth the typical cost. Often, even a "pretty good playing" mandolin can be made to play easier by a really good tech. I had a Weber that I thought played pretty well. But I was amazed at how much easier it played after a good setup. I always do my own setups on guitars, but I let a pro take care of my mandolin.

[pops1]

If you play and like to feel the fingerboard higher frets will make it feel harder to play. Try pushing the string down until it sounds clean and notice the pressure of your fingers. Try to play with just this pressure. I had higher frets and tried for a while to like them, but ended up pulling them and putting in smaller frets. I am a light player, but just could not get used to the larger frets.

[Mandoplumb]

Radiused board and taller frets always feel stiffer to me. Maybe the nut or bridge don't match the board or something. I know a lot of pickers prefer this but I don't.

[Folkmusician.com]

All mandolins have to comply with physics. This is almost always a setup issue.

Are you sure the action is the same (especially at the nut)? Do they have the same strings. Are they pretty close as far as scale length?

[Phil Goodson]

I've often wondered about this same issue.
I have 2 good mandolins that have been leveled and refretted and set up by the same excellent technician (whose name many of you would recognize).

All measurements that I can make (nut slots, relief, action, fret height, etc.) are identical. In spite of everything, one feels loose and open and easy and comfortable to play, and the other always feels "stiff".

I agree and understand that "physics is physics", and I'm sure that there is some measurement and adjustment that is being overlooked. I've had both mandolins for over five years and I just can't figure it out.

[DavidKOS]

Well, I have not had this issue since I do not play long scale Gibson style mandolins, which often seem to have heavier gauge strings even with the longer scale.

There's something to be said in favor of the traditional Italian shorter scale length.

[pops1]

I've often wondered about this same issue.
I have 2 good mandolins that have been leveled and refretted and set up by the same excellent technician (whose name many of you would recognize).

All measurements that I can make (nut slots, relief, action, fret height, etc.) are identical. In spite of everything, one feels loose and open and easy and comfortable to play, and the other always feels "stiff".

I agree and understand that "physics is physics", and I'm sure that there is some measurement and adjustment that is being overlooked. I've had both mandolins for over five years and I just can't figure it out.

Do you use the same strings on both mandolins. Strings of the same gauge, but different materials may have a different core wire and be harder to play.

[Tailgate]

I find the scale length may have a lot to do with it. Even a small difference (say 1/8") may put a noticeable amount of tension using the same strings and setup.

[DavidKOS]

I find the scale length may have a lot to do with it. Even a small difference (say 1/8") may put a noticeable amount of tension using the same strings and setup.

That was my point!

But the world revolves around Gibson scale mandolins....sigh.

[pops1]

Also a slight difference in the truss rod adjustment will make a difference.

[illinoisfiddler]

It's probably the bigger frets, possibly heavy strings, or just needing to be played. This summer I got an Ovation MM68 (USA) that wasn't playing quite right and I changed the strings to EJ70 and it plays much better. I don't know what was on there, but they were too stiff. Otherwise this mandolin is well set up. I also recently got a Kentucky KM-1500 (I already have a KM-1000). Although I am still setting it up, it already seems to play like a dream, and has sustain for days and is very loud.

[Phil Goodson]

Do you use the same strings on both mandolins. Strings of the same gauge, but different materials may have a different core wire and be harder to play.

Same strings, same scale length. Only perceptible difference is more nut width by 1/16".

[illinoisfiddler]

Maybe you don't like the nut width? I had considered the KM-1050, but coming from fiddle as my primary instrument, I much prefer the smaller width. I do like the radius, though.

[illinoisfiddler]

Oh, and I would second the nut slots if the first few notes seem hard to press. That is how my KM-1000 was until I had my luthier file them. Plays really nice now, but it does have the smaller frets, which I didn't think I liked, but now I think I do! I am not primarily a guitar player, but rather a fiddler and mandolinist, so I think the smaller frets seem easier.

[RBMB]

Set-up is key. There can be many different issues. I've had stiff instruments a few times and take it my local luthier for set-up. Besides stiffness, you can also tell him or her how high you'd like the action, the type of tunes you play, etc., to make sure things are the way you'd like them.

[Dave Sheets]

For me, the nut slot depth seems to be critical to how "stiff" the instrument feels. How low you can get the nut slot does depend on fret height, neck angle, neck curvature (truss rod adjustment). Nut slot depth also impacts intonation, as the notes in the first few frets will be sharp (due to string stretching) if the string is too far off the frets due to the strings being too high off the fingerboard at the nut. Too low, and strings are going to buzz of course.

[Nevin]

Since all the other points I can think of have been mentioned, it is possible that it is the design of the instrument in the break angle and length of the strings between the bridge and tail piece. A steep break angle and a short after length can both contribute to a stiff feeling.

[Tom Wright]

Because the layout is a bit different---wider nut and radiused fingerboard---I would say it is entirely the lack of familiarity. Because your finger lands a tiny bit off target you have to press a little harder for clean tone.

My own mandolin can feel either stiff or supple, depending on how warmed-up my fingers are. Always feels clunky at first, then feels clean and fast, and by the time I am tired it feels difficult again.

Keep practicing.

[hank]

Great subject Cap217. Are we are talking about the actual measurable force or pressure to push downward on the string caused by the string material, type, guage, length and break angle or if there is added pressure required after contact is made with the fret to get clean tonal response? My humble experience is the faster an instruments response and ability to vibrate quickly and easily the more effortless it is to manipulate on both ends, for total fretting and plectrum driving bliss. A wider neck especially with smaller hands may be throwing your hand geometry off enough to require more downward pressure.

[Northwest Steve]

I have had enough mandolins pass through my hands to find this as well. Like Philpool, setup well and buy the same tech. It would be interesting to have a really good setup person chime in. I have one mandolin that plays easier than any mandolin I have played. It has a compound radius (very nice) and large frets (I prefer medium). In an interview the builder stated that he focuses on playability. What does he do different?

One thing you might try is Elixir Nanoweb medium strings. They are 11-40 and Gore-Tex coated but they feel eaiser to play than other strings of the same guage. Not sure if why, but on one mandolin it makes a noticeable difference.

[Phil Goodson]

I have had enough mandolins pass through my hands to find this as well. Like Philpool, setup well and buy the same tech. It would be interesting to have a really good setup person chime in. I have one mandolin that plays easier than any mandolin I have played. It has a compound radius (very nice) and large frets (I prefer medium). In an interview the builder stated that he focuses on playability. What does he do different?

One thing you might try is Elixir Nanoweb medium strings. They are 11-40 and Gore-Tex coated but they feel eaiser to play than other strings of the same guage. Not sure if why, but on one mandolin it makes a noticeable difference.

Steve,
I think you might have the feel for what I'm talking about. It's not even how hard it is to press down a string. Actually, the "stiff" mandolin I speak of is no harder to fret than any of my others.
It's almost like the difference between using a hammer with just a steel handle compared to another hammer with a rubberized grip on the handle. (That probably makes no sense to anyone but me.)

I'll try to pick up a set of Elixirs soon and see if that feels different. I haven't used any of those in many years.
Thanks.

[cap217]

Same strings. I have tried elixir strings and like them but they don’t fix the stuff issue.

But width is the same on both.

Scale length is a touch different. This is 13 7/8 vs 13 3/4. Now I wouldn’t think that’s a big enough difference but I’m finding that on a mandolin the smallest things make a difference.

I have the truss rod adjusted in many ways. Notbthe issue. String height too.

The frets are larger and it’s radiused. That’s really all. I guess the nut may need attention. I’m takin back to the tech Monday.

[kurth83]

According to string tension pro website, 1/8" scale length adds about .5 lb per strings, 8 lbs total.
That's about a 2.5% increase. Admittedly not much, but musicians are often able to feel small differences like that.

The difference between light and medium strings for example is much higher, on the order of 2 lbs per string, so 4x as much (this is a pretty rough number).