cross-border travel

[foldedpath]

I appreciate your expertise. I also appreciate your faith in the system that things will be done fairly. I have personally spent too many hours of my life trying to reason with overzealous customs agents for me to have that same faith that things are always done by the book. Sometimes personalities can collide when dealing with borders, language, attitudes, prejudice, and interpretation of laws, IMHO.

Everything involved with cross-border travel is a risk, this isn't the only one. We all have to make our own decisions on the balance of risk vs. reward; the pleasure of traveling with a nice instrument.

Just one person's perspective here. I enjoy owning and playing a nice instrument, and would want it with me when I travel. If the worst happened and it was impounded, I think I could probably fight it successfully. I'm 100% sure what materials are involved, and they're currently legal for personal carry. Although it would be a huge hassle, no doubt. Still, I view the risk as low enough, and the pleasure of traveling with a nice instrument high enough, that I'd go for it.

As I get older and enter the geezer stage of life, I notice my values changing on some of these things. I'm now in that mode where it feels like life is too short to spend much time in the worry zone. I have other instruments. I would hate losing a valued one, but it wouldn't be the end of the world.

[colorado_al]

I have a few great sounding and playing instruments that I use for international travel. Are they as great as my regular gigging instruments? No. But they are still very good and enjoyable to play. Frankly, no one in the audience would hear a difference anyhow. Personally, I'd much rather take the chance of some mishap with an $800 instrument than a $4000 instrument. Customs seizure is only one of the possible ways to lose a mandolin. Theft or travel related damage is much more common.

[Jeff Mando]

If the worst happened and it was impounded, I think I could probably fight it successfully. Although it would be a huge hassle, no doubt.

A huge hassle may be an understatement. True story, my neighbor, a professional musician flew from the US to England to play a festival with his guitar. Got over there fine, did the gig, no problem, on the return flight his guitar was seized and he flew home without it. This was in April of this year. He bought another guitar. What does he do? Hire a team of lawyers to fly to England and negotiate on his behalf? Of course, not. He just lost his guitar and that's that! Yes, I would call that a huge hassle, IMHO. And, an expensive one.
One that I would like to avoid on my own travels.

[slimt]

I have a few great sounding and playing instruments that I use for international travel. Are they as great as my regular gigging instruments? No. But they are still very good and enjoyable to play. Frankly, no one in the audience would hear a difference anyhow. Personally, I'd much rather take the chance of some mishap with an $800 instrument than a $4000 instrument. Customs seizure is only one of the possible ways to lose a mandolin. Theft or travel related damage is much more common.

Mandolins with a ebony board are safe for now. Ive been lucky with those.. But any mandolin with rosewood I would be leary about .times have changed .

[foldedpath]

A huge hassle may be an understatement. True story, my neighbor, a professional musician flew from the US to England to play a festival with his guitar. Got over there fine, did the gig, no problem, on the return flight his guitar was seized and he flew home without it. This was in April of this year. He bought another guitar. What does he do? Hire a team of lawyers to fly to England and negotiate on his behalf? Of course, not. He just lost his guitar and that's that! Yes, I would call that a huge hassle, IMHO. And, an expensive one.
One that I would like to avoid on my own travels.

Anecdotes like that are scary, but could use more information to be an actual data point. What was the basis for the seizure of your neighbor's guitar? Did it include a restricted CITES I material like ivory or Brazilian rosewood? What did the customs agent claim was the reason for the action?

I can't help thinking that some of these stories (not necessarily this one) are the result of people traveling without understanding which materials are restricted, and which are allowed for personal transport.

[dhergert]

Anecdotes like that are scary, but could use more information to be an actual data point. What was the basis for the seizure of your neighbor's guitar? Did it include a restricted CITES I material like ivory or Brazilian rosewood? What did the customs agent claim was the reason for the action?

I can't help thinking that some of these stories (not necessarily this one) are the result of people traveling without understanding which materials are restricted, and which are allowed for personal transport.

Respectfully, it's easy to minimize seizure of someone else's instruments. This is the same type of minimizing that people were doing when CITES II first came out, and now we're facing serious issues.

I understand you have experience generally working with CITES II, but perhaps the goals that they dealt with at the time they went live have slipped a bit. This to me sounds more like a possible seizure policy that is executed by staff who cannot recognize the difference between CITES I and CITES II materials in musical instruments, but mostly, executed by staff who know they have effective immunity because instrument owners want to go home.

Again, CITES needs to work on clear and consistent international policies so that travelers can easily know what is safe to travel with, and what is not. And those policies need to be widely publicized through the travel networks.

Those of us here are pretty well educated and honestly pretty obsessed with our instruments, yet we're baffled by what is happening. Imagine how more casual people trying to travel must feel?

[Ranald]

Again, CITES needs to work on clear and consistent international policies so that travelers can easily know what is safe to travel with, and what is not. And those policies need to be widely publicized through the travel networks.

Those of us here are pretty well educated and honestly pretty obsessed with our instruments, yet we're baffled by what is happening. Imagine how more casual people trying to travel must feel?

I agree with Don on this one. I bought a banjolin from a private US seller a couple of years ago. When I was trying to find out how much the duties would be, I found that the Canada Customs website didn't list "musical instruments" as a category. I tried another category, perhaps furniture, in order to estimate the duty, but when the instrument arrived, the customs charges were higher than I expected. I have no idea why. Furthermore, never having hunted elephants, I wonder if those pegs on this 1923 instrument are ivory. They made it across the border once, but if Customs had seized the instrument, either the seller or buyer would have taken a loss. Now, if I'm heading down to Vermont for a musical weekend with my buddies, will US Customs take the banjolin? And what about Canadian Customs when I come back? And why not just take the pegs? Of course, I can find out about the ivory, but the whole issue is confusing for those of us who aren't importers and exporters or who don't have shipping departments. And I won't even get into Canada Post and their rates set by both weight and dimensions. It's not unusual to see someone in the post office re-packaging their gifts to the grandchildren. And people wonder why there's so much online shopping these days -- Amazon will tell me the shipping rate, and I don't have to worry about having the right-sized box in my closet, or whether its cheaper to put two items in the same box or send them separately... I know, I'm ranting.

I didn't know when I made the original post that it would stir up so much discussion. Thanks to all.
Ranald

[dhergert]

Ranald, very likely the banjo pegs (or buttons) are ivoroid, a celluloid material that was popular for this use in the early 1900s. But, the big question is, will a CITES staff member recognize the difference?

The easy way to prove the difference is to set an item made of ivoroid afire, it will almost explode into flames if it is ivoroid. Unfortunately, that also destroys the item.

[slimt]

I agree with Don on this one. I bought a banjolin from a private US seller a couple of years ago. When I was trying to find out how much the duties would be, I found that the Canada Customs website didn't list "musical instruments" as a category. I tried another category, perhaps furniture, in order to estimate the duty, but when the instrument arrived, the customs charges were higher than I expected. I have no idea why. Furthermore, never having hunted elephants, I wonder if those pegs on this 1923 instrument are ivory. They made it across the border once, but if Customs had seized the instrument, either the seller or buyer would have taken a loss. Now, if I'm heading down to Vermont for a musical weekend with my buddies, will US Customs take the banjolin? And what about Canadian Customs when I come back? And why not just take the pegs? Of course, I can find out about the ivory, but the whole issue is confusing for those of us who aren't importers and exporters or who don't have shipping departments. And I won't even get into Canada Post and their rates set by both weight and dimensions. It's not unusual to see someone in the post office re-packaging their gifts to the grandchildren. And people wonder why there's so much online shopping these days -- Amazon will tell me the shipping rate, and I don't have to worry about having the right-sized box in my closet, or whether its cheaper to put two items in the same box or send them separately... I know, I'm ranting.

I didn't know when I made the original post that it would stir up so much discussion. Thanks to all.
Ranald

If you decideto take your instrument down with you to the U.S.. Stop at Canadian Customs first and get a Return safe slip.. Customs will want to see the instrument in question.. Mark it with a sticker for your safe return back from the U.S.. .. after youve seen Canada Customs prior to U.S entry.. then your safe to go to the U.S.. and return with out issues. done that lots..

[Ranald]

Ranald, very likely the banjo pegs (or buttons) are ivoroid, a celluloid material that was popular for this use in the early 1900s. But, the big question is, will a CITES staff member recognize the difference?

The easy way to prove the difference is to set an item made of ivoroid afire, it will almost explode into flames if it is ivoroid. Unfortunately, that also destroys the item.

Thanks, Don. Your method worked. The pegs are ivoroid. Now does anyone have a Little Wonder banjolin from about 1923 that they want to sell?

[Ranald]

If you decideto take your instrument down with you to the U.S.. Stop at Canadian Customs first and get a Return safe slip.. Customs will want to see the instrument in question.. Mark it with a sticker for your safe return back from the U.S.. .. after youve seen Canada Customs prior to U.S entry.. then your safe to go to the U.S.. and return with out issues. done that lots..

Thanks for that information, slimt. It's funny you tell me that, because decades ago, I used to stop at Canadian Customs with my fiddle, and get a little card identifying it, before I took it into the States. It wasn't a very efficient system, as they provided a minimal description so that a person could take a cheap violin across the border and come home with an expensive one that fit the description. If I had a few hundred thousand dollars spending money (using the value at the time), I could have gone to the USA and replaced my imitation Stradivarius with a real one. However, one year I stopped at Customs and they told me that they didn't give out these cards anymore. I never asked for one since, and always hoped that they wouldn't give me a hard time bringing it back in. Now, it seems that they have version of the old system again, so I'll ask for the sticker -- I hope they don't use the ones they put on fruit, that have to be taken off with a knife. By the way, I used to live in a border town, so I'm used to crossing back and forth between Canada and the US. When we're crossing borders between our countries, we have fewer rights than we do at any other time as citizens of either. Customs agents can take our vehicles to pieces if they want, without explaining why. I always feel a great sense of relief when I drive away from Customs, even though I'm not doing anything wrong.

[slimt]

Thanks for that information, slimt. It's funny you tell me that, because decades ago, I used to stop at Canadian Customs with my fiddle, and get a little card identifying it, before I took it into the States. It wasn't a very efficient system, as they provided a minimal description so that a person could take a cheap violin across the border and come home with an expensive one that fit the description. If I had a few hundred thousand dollars spending money (using the value at the time), I could have gone to the USA and replaced my imitation Stradivarius with a real one. However, one year I stopped at Customs and they told me that they didn't give out these cards anymore. I never asked for one since, and always hoped that they wouldn't give me a hard time bringing it back in. Now, it seems that they have version of the old system again, so I'll ask for the sticker -- I hope they don't use the ones they put on fruit, that have to be taken off with a knife. By the way, I used to live in a border town, so I'm used to crossing back and forth between Canada and the US. When we're crossing borders between our countries, we have fewer rights than we do at any other time as citizens of either. Customs agents can take our vehicles to pieces if they want, without explaining why. I always feel a great sense of relief when I drive away from Customs, even though I'm not doing anything wrong.

I know about the car thing. it happened to me.. 2 hours for them to dismantle. 6 for me to put back together .. looking all over the ground for all the interior screws and springs..

[ollaimh]

i wouldn't take my instruments made of cites I or II across a border. i have two brazillian rosewood guitars, fantastic right here at home. i'd take one made of canadian maple.], and canadian spruce. i don't think any of my mandos have cites questionable materials?? i have some rare inlay on my grit laskin cittern, that stays home, and my carved top cittern is indian rosewood back and sides, i guess i take the plain jane pau fero??? or is pau fero also banned???

it has changed my selling and buying. i look more in canada for both

[Whitethorn]

About 4 months ago, l shipped an octave mandolin to Canada for warranty repair. I was concerned at the time because the OM had cocobolo - IE Dalbergia - binding. My luthier provided the necessary documentation for entry into Canada, including ID of the instrument's woods and verification that it was being shipped for warranty repair, sans $ exchange. It made it through...but this CITES situation has permanently put me off instruments that contain problematic woods. Heck, ebony will likely be listed soon. Think of all the fretboards.

[foldedpath]

Respectfully, it's easy to minimize seizure of someone else's instruments. This is the same type of minimizing that people were doing when CITES II first came out, and now we're facing serious issues.

I'm not minimizing anything. I requested more information about that particular story about the seizure of two guitars owned by a neighbor, to help us understand if it was an inappropriate seizure. That would be an important data point for discussions like this.

If it was a legit seizure for restricted materials, like the earlier report of items being shipped, that's another situation entirely. In that case, it's a question of being better informed about the required paperwork, and then addressing any desired changes at the lobbying/political level (which I do support).

To be clear, I think the current system is sketchy and could use improvement, especially in the area of "instrument passports" that could ease these concerns for hand-carrying across borders.

Again, CITES needs to work on clear and consistent international policies so that travelers can easily know what is safe to travel with, and what is not. And those policies need to be widely publicized through the travel networks.

I agree that travel networks could do a better job of warning people who might be carrying musical instruments, but once you know it's an issue, it's not that hard to look up CITES material lists on the Web and then figure out if your instrument is restricted or not. A travel agent or booking web site (do people still use travel agents?) isn't going to tell you what your instrument is made of.

[almeriastrings]

In terms of seizure of hand-carried, accompanied instruments the only things that are going to cause major problems at a border are items that include CITES Appendix 1 components. That effectively means:

Ivory
Brazilian Rosewood
Tortoiseshell

If your instrument has any of these you need full permits in advance. Frankly, it is better to travel with something else.

If *SHIPPING* instruments across borders a whole new situation applies and in addition to the above, other materials will require documenting and permitting. It needs to be noted that the US has its own regulations (the ESA) which imposes yet more conditions quite separately from CITES.... as far as travel to other countries, however, if you are in the clear as far as ivory, TS and BR are concerned you are highly, highly unlikely to have any issues whatsoever if you are travelling with an accompanied instrument.

[Ivan Kelsall]

CITES has been in effect since 1st July 1975. Prior to that,i believe that the woods now 'banned' were legal to use. ? A few years back,there was an extensive discussion re. this very topic on here. I put forward the idea that any instruments containing the 'now banned' woods,should be given a 'Passport',signifying that the were made pre-CITES. As other woods were added to the list - the same would apply to instruments containing those woods as well.

Almeria,with his expertise, might very well be able to outline whether something like that could be implemented,but something 'rational' needs doing. As it is,it all seems a collosal mess,& i feel sorry for those folks caught up in it all.

So,the way i see it is that if you have an instrument made pre-CITES,you should be able to apply for a 'Permit / Passport' (call it what you like) in order to be able to travel with it 'anywhere in the world'. It sounds simplistic,but most complex matters can be simplified given some thought,
Ivan

[almeriastrings]

There are and have been such proposals, Ivan. However... getting full agreement and implementation across so many countries has proved difficult, to say the least. I agree that it would make very good sense. A proposal was accepted as long ago as 2013, but until everyone is in agreement and fully implements it, it is not much use.

See paragraph 2 (here):

https://americanorchestras.org/advoc...avel-tips.html

[foldedpath]

So,the way i see it is that if you have an instrument made pre-CITES,you should be able to apply for a 'Permit / Passport' (call it what you like) in order to be able to travel with it 'anywhere in the world'. It sounds simplistic,but most complex matters can be simplified given some thought

Not every complex matter lends itself to being simplified, and this is one of them.

If we're talking about "grandfathering in" materials for hand-carry across borders, then we're talking about ivory, hawksbill tortoise shell, certain species of pearl, and Brazilian rosewood, the ones on the CITES I list. It's still legal to hand-carry instruments made with the CITES II materials like rosewood and blackwood/grenadilla. Although, it would be nice to have some kind of pre-registration passport system to reduce the risk of mis-identification.

The CITES I materials will not be "grandfathered in" with an allowance for musical instruments made pre-CITES. That would defeat the purpose of the restrictions, which is to eliminate the economic value of things like ivory and tortoise shell.

Brazilian rosewood is basically a lost cause because all the big trees have been cut down and there is continued pressure on the tiny habitat where they used to grow in Brazil. It will probably never recover. But there are still living elephants and Hawksbill sea turtles. If there is zero ability to sell those materials -- including trying to pass off tortoise shell as something made from Grandma's old hair comb -- then there is a chance to preserve these endangered species.

That's basically Wildlife Conservation 101: remove the economic value. It's not a perfect system in a world where the human population continues to grow, and wildlife and forest habits continue to shrink, but it's the only thing that's been shown to work, even a little bit. Right now, it's not such a big deal to forego the use of CITES I materials in musical instruments we want to travel with. They don't need to be grandfathered in. The CITES II materials don't need to be grandfathered in either, because it's already legal to travel with them, as long as you're hand-carrying and not shipping.

Most of the pain in the new CITES II list is falling on those who sell and ship instruments across borders, and I agree that system could work a lot more smoothly than it does now.

[Jill McAuley]

Since my '69 00-18 has Brazilian rosewood on the headstock, fretboard and bridge (serial number places it as one of the ones made before the transition to Indian rosewood) I'm either going to have to sell it here before I leave (Boo!) or get a guitar "passport" for it. There's a very lengthy thread over at the Unofficial Martin Guitar Forum about everything involved in getting one. I'd hate to have to sell it as it's a really great guitar.

[Ryk Loske]

Jill,

Don't sell it!!! You may want to check out the info in this Fretboard Journal link: https://www.fretboardjournal.com/col...t-will-travel/. It may be the same info you referenced in the Martin Forum.

Ryk

[foldedpath]

Since my '69 00-18 has Brazilian rosewood on the headstock, fretboard and bridge (serial number places it as one of the ones made before the transition to Indian rosewood) I'm either going to have to sell it here before I leave (Boo!) or get a guitar "passport" for it. There's a very lengthy thread over at the Unofficial Martin Guitar Forum about everything involved in getting one. I'd hate to have to sell it as it's a really great guitar.

Yeah, that would be my situation if I ever moved away from the USA. I have a custom Santa Cruz FS guitar, made from Steve Swan's stash of koa and old German spruce. The koa would pass, but the binding and headstock laminate is Brazilian rosewood. I could take a chance on sneaking that past a border inspector as Indian rosewood, but the trim has that distinctive Brazilian coloring. I wouldn't want to risk losing the guitar. I'd have to figure out the paperwork. For now though, I don't plan on moving outside the country and it's easy enough just to travel with other instruments.

Keep us posted on how that works out for you, and good luck with the move!

[Ivan Kelsall]

Hi Jill - I'd most likely feel the same as yourself if i had your guitar. Nobody wants to 'have to sell' an instrument that they love.

In your position,if you have sufficient time,i'd contact every body of people involved in the 'rules & regs',& ask them what you need to do in order to take your guitar with you & i'd do it ASAP.

I somehow see a future (it may have already happened ?) where folk have a 'travelling guitar - free from ',& their main guitar which they keep at home. I'm sure that there must be many CITES friendly instruments being made,as it seems to be becoming more & more critical to be so,
Ivan

[Dave Martin]

"Any problem taking your mandolin on a cruise ship ? My wife has booked a ten day cruise next February for the Western Caribbean and I told her that the only way I will go is with my mandolin as I can't go ten days without practicing ! "

I take a mando on cruise ships whenever I go, no problems yet. I take a low priced, no exotic wood Breedlove Crossover.

[ollaimh]

does anyone have a list of what exactly are cites I and citesII materials?