taller frets makes it sound better, more sustain.

[kurth83]

Can you guys explain why?

I just got my MD605SB back from a refret, put taller frets on Jescar 50078.

It went from .30ish tall to .50.

It gives me the improved playability I was expecting (this isn't my first refret).

But I was surprised that the sound improved, the G string has noticably better sustain, which frankly was my only complaint about this mando. It is still the same sweet instrument, but the sustain (especially the G string) is noticably better.

I've talked about this mando before, and why it suits me so well. It produces a quieter sound, but very sweet and balanced when picked gently. And that tone comes out the pickup, so for better or worse, it remains my main player. My MD305 is noticeably louder, brighter (less sweet) so better for acoustic jams, but that's the only time I use it, and it needs a refret too, so it may become a more powerful instrument also.

So I am very happy with the improvement, but wondering why it is so dramatic.

I seem to recall hearing about similar effects on bass and guitar when raising actions, but I never messed around there myself. I guess I am surprised the effect is so noticeable.

I would never have thought of a refret as a way to change an instrument's sound.

[colorado_al]

Higher frets require higher positioning of the bridge (and nut slots). You might have been able to obtain the better G sustain by just raising the bridge with your original frets. To maintain .060 string height at the 12th fret, you'd now have to raise your bridge .020 higher than it was before. It may not seem like a lot, but it can make a significant difference in pressure. Would be like having the .030 frets with .080 action at the 12th fret. It is also possible that your string height at the 12th fret might have been .050 before and now it is .070 (raising the bridge .030 from before). Hard to know if you didn't measure the string height before the refret.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Colorado_ al has it !. I've read many times on here regarding folks with ''too quiet'' mandolins with little sustain. The trick as Al says,is to raise the action by a tiny amount,& usually that's enough to increase the volume / clarity & sustain enough to make a difference.

Again,as Al mentions - 'string pressure'. Six years ago,i had the truss rod on my Weber adjusted. There was about a 1/4 of a turn in it,so possibly very little neck movement indeed. However,a couple of days later,i played the mandolin,& the volume had increased by a dramatic amount. I posted the info. on here,& another Weber "Fern" owner posted that the same had happened to his own mandolin. So,the tiny adjustment must have at least added some extra downward pressure on the bridge,resulting inthe volume change,
Ivan

[colorado_al]

Also possible to get similar results by using heavier strings and maintaining the bridge height. On mandolins with weaker bass, I like to increase the gauge of the G course by 5% (to 42) and also bring the string height at the 12th up to .065 on the bass side.

[MikeZito]

I've read many times on here regarding folks with ''too quiet'' mandolins with little sustain. The trick as Al says,is to raise the action by a tiny amount,& usually that's enough to increase the volume / clarity & sustain enough to make a difference.

When I was first learning to play the guitar back in the 70's, somebody told me that the action on Martin guitars was higher than other guitars so that it would have more volume than other guitars. I don't know if the statement about Martin's was true, but it was a lesson in bridge height that I never forgot.

[Andy Miller]

Another thing that will improve tone/sustain is having frets better-seated than the originals were, and perhaps even sealed in with glue. And maybe even a little stiffening of the overall neck assembly if the new frets compress the board a little more than before. I've had more than one customer express surprise at how much a refret improved sound, as opposed to just playability. And. . . better playability can make it easier for the player to produce a good sound!

[Seter]

This is while classical guitars tend to have higher action for better volume and tone. For electric guitars very low action is fine since tone and volume is in your pickups and amplifier.

[pops1]

I think it is more that the frets are seated better and the neck is solid. A classical guitar has more height because it needs it. The strings vibrate more than steel. They also don't feel hard to push down and don't change intonation as much as you fret. My mandolin has very low action and at times it will, because of humidity, raise the action to where it is hard for me to play. I doesn't change the volume, just makes it harder to play. I can lower my saddle as much as a 1/32" with no change in volume. New frets won't add more than that, but they should make the neck more solid. If you have moisture changes the fingerboard swells with humidity and shrinks with lack of it. Doing that it compresses the wood and you may even notice a fret lifting or loose. The same thing happens with wood floors with humidity changes, no moisture in winter with heat, the floors squeak as the nails get loose from the same action. New frets may have larger tangs, or are glued in to insure they are tight, stiffening the neck. A loose fret will cause a string buzz simply because it is loose, my money is on the refret alone.

[Tom Wright]

Obviously, higher clearance allows a stronger initial attack not getting choked by low strings. Higher frets, however, on their own have zero effect compared to low ones, all things being equal. Given the short distance between frets, even nearly bottomed-out frets will still not let you push the string all the way down to contact with the fingerboard, so you are always using the same piece of metal regardless of height.

But not all things will be equal because how you play is affected by what your fingers feel. With very low frets, although they have the advantage of not snagging your fingertips when moving, you are more likely to not feel them and end up fingering more on top of the fret. This damps the tone and reduces sustain, as your flesh overhangs the fret and is touching the vibrating length of the string.

High frets are much more noticeable to the fretting fingertips, and you are more likely to both fret more accurately and also to fret less on top of the fret. Both will make your tone clearer, but it is your accuracy in fretting that has improved. Paying attention to the possibilities of finger placement yields a range of tone color and dynamic control.

I find that at medium and lower dynamics I can fret well back for a brighter, sustaining tone, or climb on the fret a little for a darker tone. As I pick harder, the strings buzz more so I climb onto the fret more, which cleans up the tone and the stronger attack makes up for the slight damping. For special effect I can fret exactly on top of the fret for a fully muted, short duration note.

Higher frets help more than they hurt, and also allow longer lifetime before a refret. I'm using EVO on all my instruments so that won't happen for me, but I like the higher frets for the playing response.

After a luthier changes your frets to higher he will of course make a higher nut and set bridge height to accommodate it. But the improved tone is not, in this case, because the bridge is higher, unless said luthier made it even higher than needed to accommodate the new frets.

[Folkmusician.com]

Looks like everything was covered already...

Higher bridge position, more downward force on bridge.
Possible the frets have better seating.
Frets are freshly crowned giving cleaner fretting.
You are fretting cleaner due to more pressure going to the strings vs the fingerboard.
Other setup issues were addressed at the same time as the refret.


Some combination of all of the above.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Al - The only problems that i found with heavier gauge strings ( J75's / DR MD12s) when i've tried 'em are 1) They need to be picked harder for the same volume - more metal / tension = more force required. 2) They sound dull compared with a lighter gauge string (IMHO). I put some DR MD12's on my Lebeda mandolin & it only sounded louder if i picked harder. I took 'em off,put MD11s on it,picked just as hard as i did on the MD12's = it sounded louder & more clear. Of course this might very well vary from mandolin to mandolin.

It was the same with my Primetone picks. The 1.3 mm ones sounded fine - would 1.5mm ones sound 'louder' - yes !. Would 2mm ones sound louder still ? - yes,but all the clarity vanished. So,back to 1.5mm ones,
Ivan

[Br1ck]

I'm convinced, at least to my 68 year old hearing, there is a zone where the strings don't actually buzz, but still contact the frets enough to muddy the sound. Raise them just a bit and they sound very clear. Maybe they start to buzz but I don't hear it as buzz, but dampening.

[kurth83]

After all this I am thinking my luthier did some additional setup or cleanup as part of the refret, he was talking about stuff like that, but it went over my head.

Every instrument I get back from him is like that, fantastic work.

[MediumMando5722]

This is while classical guitars tend to have higher action for better volume and tone. For electric guitars very low action is fine since tone and volume is in your pickups and amplifier.

Higher action on an electric guitar has the same benefits as an acoustic instrument.

[RustyMadd]

In the absence of double-blind measurements of the before and after, this is perhaps just imaginary. If anyone has any proof of a particular maintenance procedure markedly improving tone, I would love to see/hear it. But statements and claims such as the OPs should be taken with a grain of salt unless accompanied with some sort of critical evidence. Blessings

[Folkmusician.com]

I don't know about proof, but it I would say that most agree setup factors do come in to play.

Fret seating
Frets being level
Proper crown
Nut slots
Bridge slots
Bridge fitting and tuning
Action

I think most of us would consider these things relevant to tone.

[Jeff Mando]

Well, as far as proof, I think everybody has heard of "Bluegrass action" on an acoustic guitar gives more volume -- meaning high action and usually heavy strings.....and giving the strings plenty of "circle" to vibrate in without touching the fingerboard

Not sure, it makes much difference on an electric (but I've only been playing since 1966.......)

Not sure how taller frets would change things UNLESS you are comparing it to an instrument that was buzzing before the fret job......?

[kurth83]

In the absence of double-blind measurements of the before and after, this is perhaps just imaginary. If anyone has any proof of a particular maintenance procedure markedly improving tone, I would love to see/hear it. But statements and claims such as the OPs should be taken with a grain of salt unless accompanied with some sort of critical evidence. Blessings

Yes, lying (exaggeration) and false accusations are both quite common on the internet, not to mention confused posters, so no, you can't know if I'm telling the truth, but to those of you are willing to give me the benefit of the doubt instead of casting aspersions, I am still trying to figure out what happened.

I talked to the luthier today, and he said he did nothing but frets and a setup.

I have another nearly identical mandolin (an MD305), that I have played off against this one many times. The results have always been the same, the MD305 had more sustain, was brighter, louder, and more resonant. The difference on the low G was the most dramatic, the 605 had so little sustain on the G that it plunked a lot like a banjo. I had always attributed it to the thicker finish on the MD605SB (I do love the SB look), but clearly that was incorrect.

Playing them off against each other today yielded opposite results, the 605 is now better in all respects, louder, brighter, more sustain, more resonance, especially in the airy ringing highs, and the low G sustain is about the same on both instruments now.

It's such a dramatic (and unexpected) difference that's why I posted, to see if there was any reasonable explanation. It seems the two main possibilities are flaws being corrected and higher action.

I did talk to the luthier today who refretted it, he said he didn't do anything other than refrets and a setup. He also said he didn't detect any flaws when working on it, the nut and setup was fine before.

I am going to send the MD305 in for the same work now - it has similarly low frets - we'll see if similar magic happens. If it does, then higher action will be the culprit.

The frets on an Eastman are very short, and I had the action very low, at the buzz threshold. These are the tallest frets I could get that were still narrowish, and the action is a bit higher than it was relative to the frets (not at buzz threshold like before), so it is a large string height change.

I'll post again when I get it back with the results.

[Bob Buckingham]

I beg to differ on the higher action thing. It is not required to get a better sound from your mandolin. The higher frets alone are responsible for the improved sound. I learned this when a luthier friend told me about it and we refretted the Eastman 315 I use for teaching. We put the same frets on it that are used on Martin guitars. Wow the mids and lows are impressive and the sustain is fine too.We did this several years ago. I am having the same thing done to another mandolin but this time we are using Evo Gold. Those frets will still be going strong long after I am gone. Larger frets do play a role in the sound of your mandolin. If you read this and other forums you will read about mandolins and other insturments that feature larger frets as a selling point and as a favorable attribute for the instrument.

[RustyMadd]

Yes, lying (exaggeration) and false accusations are both quite common on the internet, not to mention confused posters, so no, you can't know if I'm telling the truth, but to those of you are willing to give me the benefit of the doubt instead of casting aspersions, I am still trying to figure out what happened.

I talked to the luthier today, and he said he did nothing but frets and a setup.

I have another nearly identical mandolin (an MD305), that I have played off against this one many times. The results have always been the same, the MD305 had more sustain, was brighter, louder, and more resonant. The difference on the low G was the most dramatic, the 605 had so little sustain on the G that it plunked a lot like a banjo. I had always attributed it to the thicker finish on the MD605SB (I do love the SB look), but clearly that was incorrect.

Playing them off against each other today yielded opposite results, the 605 is now better in all respects, louder, brighter, more sustain, more resonance, especially in the airy ringing highs, and the low G sustain is about the same on both instruments now.

It's such a dramatic (and unexpected) difference that's why I posted, to see if there was any reasonable explanation. It seems the two main possibilities are flaws being corrected and higher action.

I did talk to the luthier today who refretted it, he said he didn't do anything other than refrets and a setup. He also said he didn't detect any flaws when working on it, the nut and setup was fine before.

I am going to send the MD305 in for the same work now - it has similarly low frets - we'll see if similar magic happens. If it does, then higher action will be the culprit.

The frets on an Eastman are very short, and I had the action very low, at the buzz threshold. These are the tallest frets I could get that were still narrowish, and the action is a bit higher than it was relative to the frets (not at buzz threshold like before), so it is a large string height change.

I'll post again when I get it back with the results.

There is no way I meant that you were in anyway lying. Please forgive me sir for giving you that impression. I sincerely apologize. Blessings

PS I just wish there was some kind of experience we could have ourselves that would lock it in as it were as true. No offense sir.

[treidm]

Higher action on an electric guitar has the same benefits as an acoustic instrument.

Agree, think Stevie Ray Vaughan, who raised string height, used heavy strings and I think it helped in achieving his unique tone and volume
He reportedly used normal amps that anyone else could use, along with non-custom guitars, that again anyone else could buy
His big difference was setup and playing style of course

[pops1]

Agree, think Stevie Ray Vaughan, who raised string height, used heavy strings and I think it helped in achieving his unique tone and volume
He reportedly used normal amps that anyone else could use, along with non-custom guitars, that again anyone else could buy
His big difference was setup and playing style of course

Heavy strings on an electric guitar will drive the pickup more as there is more mass for the magnet to sense. Pickup height does more to increase volume on an electric guitar than anything you can do with the action. It's all about how strong the magnet is, how it is wound, how heavy the strings, and how far away from the strings. Anything else is just an action or intonation adjustment.