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Thread: New bridge saddle

  1. #1
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    Default New bridge saddle

    Yesterday while jamming with a friend, the saddle on my mandolin broke between the A and E courses. We're talking two piece, thumbscrew type of saddle. This is not a question of gluing. But can I expect the tone to change when a new saddle is installed? The bridge foot will stay and I hope to replace only the saddle. But there will be two different pieces of ebony, different wood characteristics, minute differences from the original. I'm assuming, even though the new part will also be ebony, that no two pieces are the same and the acoustics could be affected. Or am I reading too much into this?

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    Default Re: New bridge saddle

    I had to replace the saddle on my Kentucky KM1000; it didn't break but it had bowed over time. I measured the screw hole diameter and the hole to hole distance and found that a saddle from Cumberland Acoustics fit. It sounds great. I think as long as you go with a quality saddle with the same dimensions you will be fine.

    Good luck!

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    Default Re: New bridge saddle

    Well after contacting the mandolin builder, part of his response was "Replacing it[the saddle] will likely change the sound of the instrument, anywhere from some to drastically different". He was responding to my question whether to ask a local, respected luthier to replace the saddle or send the bridge, base and all, back to the builder himself who would repair or replace. My inquiry isn't so much questioning the builder or the local luthier as it is to understand what's at play here.

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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: New bridge saddle

    A replacement will surely sound better than the broken one.
    Weigh the old one, weigh the new one. If the new one is heavier, remove some wood until it weighs the same as the old one. That is probably the best you can do to replicate the sound of the old one (...and perhaps prevent the new one from sounding better than the old one...).

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    Default Re: New bridge saddle

    I would replace the saddle with a quality (ie Cumberland). I don't think there will be much noticeable difference but your saddle was already defective .... any change will be a positive one IMO
    Dave
    Heiden A, '52 Martin D-18, Taylor 510, Carlson Custom A with Electronics

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    Default Re: New bridge saddle

    Quote Originally Posted by sunburst View Post
    A replacement will surely sound better than the broken one.
    Weigh the old one, weigh the new one. If the new one is heavier, remove some wood until it weighs the same as the old one. That is probably the best you can do to replicate the sound of the old one (...and perhaps prevent the new one from sounding better than the old one...).
    Well a week ago a new saddle was made and installed. It "looks" almost like the old/broken one. The base is still the original. Just a new saddle. With the new saddle the location of the thumbwheels is lowered, parallel to the saddle's bottom, thereby providing more wood above the wheels for strength. And the mandolin sounds okay but not great before the original saddle broke. Gone are the overtones and subtle dynamics. Intonation is fine. I haven't weighed the two combinations but that may be the next step. If the new combo is heavier, then can a lighter saddle possibly get me back to a better sound? If so then how/where exactly do you go about removing wood?
    Last edited by dorenac; Oct-29-2018 at 6:43am.

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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: New bridge saddle

    Quote Originally Posted by dorenac View Post
    ...If the new combo is heavier, then can a lighter saddle possibly get me back to a better sound? If so then how/where exactly do you go about removing wood?
    We don't really know without trying, but weight is the only thing we can easily manipulate. Internal damping might have some effect, but I don't know of any evidence that it makes a noticeable difference in mandolin bridges, and we can't manipulate it. We can get a rough idea by dropping bridge tops of similar weight and try to find one that sounds about the same when it hits, but matching a new one to a broken one is not really feasible.
    As for removing wood to lighten, the part can be thinned some and material can be removed from the bottom surface. It has to start out close in weight in order to be able to match the weight of the old one.
    My guess is you will not be able to match the sound in your memory, so perhaps the best thing is to optimize the set up, consider it as good as it will get and start to get used to it. You may like it better after some playing time.

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    Default Re: New bridge saddle

    Quote Originally Posted by sunburst View Post
    My guess is you will not be able to match the sound in your memory, so perhaps the best thing is to optimize the set up, consider it as good as it will get and start to get used to it. You may like it better after some playing time.
    Good advice. On a related note, I buy and sell old instruments and often will replace 30-year old strings and clean the instrument only to find it plays and sounds worse with new strings -- which sounds illogical, but seems to happen on a fairly regular basis. Like the old strings have "settled in" to the instrument, or something...of course, the new owner would not know that......

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    Default Re: New bridge saddle

    Just to kick this discussion around a bit more, would it make sense to experiment with different strings again? I had settled on nickel bronze, which sounded great on the old bridge, 11.5--40. It seems there's more mass with this saddle, or at least I feel I have to strike the strings just a little stronger to drive the sound. However I would like to stay with the same gauges and not increase them.

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    Default Re: New bridge saddle

    I have found when I take all the tension off my mandolin to do some work, the mandolin sounds different for a week or so then comes back to where it was. Give it a little time.
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

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  13. #11

    Default Re: New bridge saddle

    I totally agree with pops here.. It takes a little time to settle in after you re-apply tension.
    Robert Fear
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    Default Re: New bridge saddle

    Then I should mention this new bridge was installed on the original base several weeks ago, almost a month ago. So as Sunburst commented I should learn to like it, and in all truth it isn't bad but I wish I could tweak a little more somehow.

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    Default Re: New bridge saddle

    It should have settled in by now, so a couple of questions... I'm sure you probably checked this but.. are you sure the base is oriented as it was originally, treble end to the treble side? Is the base sitting flat on the top, has it tipped forward a little? Both are tone and volume killers. Good Luck.
    Dave
    Heiden A, '52 Martin D-18, Taylor 510, Carlson Custom A with Electronics

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    Default Re: New bridge saddle

    Also was the bridge foot marked and put back on the correct way, it may be very hard to see unless you take it off, but tops are not carved perfect and the fit would change slightly it it were not the same.
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

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    Default Re: New bridge saddle

    Thanks rockies and pops1 all the above were covered meticulously. Intonation, bridge height vis-a-vis string height and action are all just great, maybe just a hair improved. Although there WAS and still IS a slight saddle tilt towards the nut. Next string change I will address that again. The bridge base was reused, just the saddle replaced. As I review Sunburst's remarks I'm thinking the saddle mass might be greater. Imperceptible to the naked eye but could be determined by weighing the old and new saddles, especially since the base remains the same. FIK the mass of two different pieces of ebony could be just a bit different. When I contacted the mandolin builder originally he said he expected the sound would "be different" with a new saddle. And indicated that there would be changes in the mandolin's acoustic properties.

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    Default Re: New bridge saddle

    Most like to fit the bridge with a tilt to the rear not the nut, so I am wondering since the whole bridge would have been off if the base got turned around when it was put back together. Worth checking out. I would see if you can pull the saddle straight and if that makes a difference. If it is not marked I put a mark underneath in pencil when I take it off to make sure it goes on the same way.
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

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    Default Re: New bridge saddle

    Quote Originally Posted by pops1 View Post
    Most like to fit the bridge with a tilt to the rear not the nut, so I am wondering since the whole bridge would have been off if the base got turned around when it was put back together. Worth checking out. I would see if you can pull the saddle straight and if that makes a difference. If it is not marked I put a mark underneath in pencil when I take it off to make sure it goes on the same way.
    In this case the bridge base was penciled treble and bass. Also by just looking closely at the grooves cut in the new saddle it was clear which way to place the bridge. So can be ruled out here.

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    Default Re: New bridge saddle

    Lots of tweaking possible. Just to remove mass, shape the bottom into an elliptical section just as strong, lower mass. The ellipse shape from one end to the other, not in cross section. See standard beam / truss shapes.
    Stephen Perry

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    Default Re: New bridge saddle

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen Perry View Post
    Lots of tweaking possible. Just to remove mass, shape the bottom into an elliptical section just as strong, lower mass. The ellipse shape from one end to the other, not in cross section. See standard beam / truss shapes.
    I've been considering that possibility. Will that affect string pressure distribution on the top negatively? Not sure what I'm asking here other than would an ellipse shape transfer pressure outward to G and E strings too much ? The concept is like a pre-stress beam or a bridge over a river.

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: New bridge saddle

    Just curious. In all my years of mandolin and archtop guitar playing I have never broke a bridge saddle. How does that happen? It sounds like this is a modern recently made instrument. I would think that either there was a defect in the first place or some constant downward pressure on the saddle while playing.
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    Default Re: New bridge saddle

    This instrument was built in 1979 and I believe I might be its 3rd owner. I don't care to mention the name as it's irrelevant and I don't want it to reflect on the builder. Suffice it to say it's a very high end mandolin. What happened is the ebony sheared horizontally at the underside of the saddle between the E and A courses. The shear separation was probably 1/2" long. For all anyone knows the ebony piece itself might have had a flaw. The strings on the mandolin at the time were 11.5-40's, nothing out of the ordinary. So the options I've been mulling over are to send the mandolin and bridge(builder's recommendation) back to him, or explore options with the new saddle my local luthier made. Returning the mandolin to the builder will be very expensive with shipping and insurance. I'm trying to work around that, although in the end it still might be the best option.

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    Default Re: New bridge saddle

    Quote Originally Posted by dorenac View Post
    I've been considering that possibility. Will that affect string pressure distribution on the top negatively? Not sure what I'm asking here other than would an ellipse shape transfer pressure outward to G and E strings too much ? The concept is like a pre-stress beam or a bridge over a river.
    No. It actually distributes the load more efficiently. Look in any statics / mechanical handbook. Can use tapping etc to guide. Indeed like a standard through-truss bridge, gobs of them around. Saves material, more efficient, doesn't concentrate stress in the middle. Send to me and I'll do it if you like. Fun stuff.
    Stephen Perry

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    Default Re: New bridge saddle

    What are acoustic implications with a parabolic(arch) bottom on the saddle , not the bridge base?

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    Default Re: New bridge saddle

    Lower mass, reduce the magnitude of the step stress riser, cleans up the sound a tiny bit, especially enlivens the G & E courses a tiny bit. I end up working with tiny bits here and there a lot. Pretty much that's what we've got available to work with once the thing is designed and assembled! Can't go mucking about with major things on a finished instrument.
    Stephen Perry

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    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: New bridge saddle

    The main reason of broken saddles is wood cut at an angle, I've seen up to 15 degrees run out on saddles. Second reason (mostly combined with above) that breaks saddle is material removal from bottom of the saddle where the wheels are. I do this as very last option for extremely low bridges. First I lower base from bottom, then the steps under wheels (and remove the extra material in the bottom of saddle between wheels if required). Wheneve I have to remove material from saddle and feel uncomfortable I would add tiny piece of ebony between the saddle and base to relieve the stress at the wheels.
    Adrian

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