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Thread: Went to my first Blue Grass jam

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    Registered User Tenzin's Avatar
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    Default Went to my first Blue Grass jam

    Every Tuesday about 2 miles from me a few people get together and play blue grass. (There were a couple of banjo players, a few guitars and I was the third mandolin player.) I got the nerve up and went last Tuesday. I brought my mandolin; I think next time I'll go with a 6-string. I'll be able to keep up a bit more.

    I really don't know a lot of tunes, but I can follow along even on the mandolin when they are playing in certain keys. (I'm still working on that pinky for four finger chords. Then the key they're playing in won't be an issue.)

    And once the storm is over, you won’t remember how you made it through, how you managed to survive. You won’t even be sure, whether the storm is really over. But one thing is certain. When you come out of the storm, you won’t be the same person who walked in. That’s what this storm’s all about.

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    not a donut Kevin Winn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Went to my first Blue Grass jam

    Bravo! Hope it was a welcoming group and you had a good time!

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    Default Re: Went to my first Blue Grass jam

    Excellent!
    - Ed

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    Registered User Tenzin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Went to my first Blue Grass jam

    They were all very nice. It was a bit difficult to 'keep up' on the mandolin, I've really only been seriously playing for about 6 months. (I'd say I play about 2 hours / day, with about 45 minutes being 'serious practicing'.) Not having yet developed that pinky strength to play four finger chords, really puts me at a disadvantage when one yells out a song "in Bb". I'm far from great on the guitar, but I'd say I'm on the high side of mediocre!!! I'll definitely bring the mandolin with me for when they do play in a key I can keep up with.

    It's also difficult that most of the tunes were brand new to me. That too will come with time I'm sure.

    And once the storm is over, you won’t remember how you made it through, how you managed to survive. You won’t even be sure, whether the storm is really over. But one thing is certain. When you come out of the storm, you won’t be the same person who walked in. That’s what this storm’s all about.

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    Default Re: Went to my first Blue Grass jam

    I find knowing how to play guitar helps me at jams - I can watch the guitar player's fretting had to see which chord is being played, and then I can play it on mandolin. I STILL find Bb difficult!

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    Default Re: Went to my first Blue Grass jam

    Keep at it and you'll get the standards down pat. It does take some time but it sounds as though you are motivated. Way to go.

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    Default Re: Went to my first Blue Grass jam

    Quote Originally Posted by LadysSolo View Post
    I find knowing how to play guitar helps me at jams - I can watch the guitar player's fretting had to see which chord is being played, and then I can play it on mandolin. I STILL find Bb difficult!
    Agreed on both counts,... Bb is like the worst key ever,... Just IMHO
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    Default Re: Went to my first Blue Grass jam

    Go with three fingered chords. You don't need those <censored> chop chords.

    And Bb is not that hard of a key to play in on the mandolin. Try these chords, from the low G to high E string (x means don't play it, mute instead):

    Bb 335x
    Eb 356x
    F 233x or 578x

    After playing swing music for several years, I have gotten to love the keys of F and Bb, in addition to my favorites G, D, and C.
    "Those who know don't have the words to tell, and the ones with the words don't know so well." - Bruce Cockburn

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    Default Re: Went to my first Blue Grass jam

    Congrats on your first outing. One for the memory banks. Next visit take a field recorder and work with the recording at home. It makes a world of difference in a short time. Don't give up on your mandolin. I generally take two or three instruments to a jam and fill in where needed.
    Keep in mind that mandolins are tuned in fifths. So when playing in closed positions, using no open strings, when you move from a higher pitched string, example E to A, you are going from playing a I / 1 to a IV / 4 change ….. The One chord, ex. A Four chord, D, and Five chord, E, scales are " all right there" close to one another. Some fiddlers call using this closed position playing " using a finger capo". It opens up playing double stops and pieces of scales with very little position shifting. R/
    Last edited by UsuallyPickin; Oct-16-2018 at 9:49am. Reason: Added thought
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    Registered User Tenzin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Went to my first Blue Grass jam

    I actually got back from my second jam. I did 'cheat' a bit by bringing my guitar. (No one hits a guitar player when s/he takes out a capo ). I brought my mandolin too.

    I've been practicing the major scale stuff jazzmando.com. Wow, I never realized how under developed my pinky was! I'm also learning songs from mandolessons.com. Now I just need to learn the four or five different chord progressions that make up the majority of what we play there. Rome wasn't built in a day!

    Thanks for all the kind words of encouragement.

    And once the storm is over, you won’t remember how you made it through, how you managed to survive. You won’t even be sure, whether the storm is really over. But one thing is certain. When you come out of the storm, you won’t be the same person who walked in. That’s what this storm’s all about.

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    Registered User Timbofood's Avatar
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    Default Re: Went to my first Blue Grass jam

    The more you go, the better you will recognize where you think you need to work on. The four finger chop chord will get easier after you get more used to it. Be strong.
    I was running the channels and ran across an old Porter Wagoner, show with Jim and Jesse and I was reminded that Jesse uses a LOT of three finger partial chords and play in Bb and F with out skipping a beat.
    Nothing wrong with changing between guitar and Mandolin, good to,give your fingers a little change sometimes too until you really get “hardened”. It gets easier, just go as often as you can.
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    Registered User Tenzin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Went to my first Blue Grass jam

    So tomorrow will be the fourth jam I attend. I've been bringing my guitar, along with the mandolin, since I'm 'more mediocre' on that than the mandolin! (I still bring the mandolin and try when there's a song in a simpler key.

    Now I understand about chord progressions and can figure out in my head (maybe a little counting on my fingers) things like I,IV, V…

    I have no idea on how to improvise. My only guess is triads for major chords which although a start, is limited.

    I have been practicing the FFcP from jazzmando.com (that's really a workout especially on my pinky) and I purchased a couple of mandolin ebooks from fretboard-toolbox, which I haven't delved into enough yet. I have down G and C movable chord shapes and I know a few open minor chords that let me practice some of the regular stuff I play on guitar so I can switch quicker and more smoothly.

    So…I know there are a tonne of resources on the web along with books. Do you kind people have anything in particular that you recommend? I know I just have to memorize which chords for particular keys and the circle of fifths and I have to figure out a method and just play along to learn 'lead' on the mandolin. Aside from that, and the whole 'world peace' thing, is there anything I should be working on?

    Thanks!

    And once the storm is over, you won’t remember how you made it through, how you managed to survive. You won’t even be sure, whether the storm is really over. But one thing is certain. When you come out of the storm, you won’t be the same person who walked in. That’s what this storm’s all about.

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    Registered User Drew Egerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Went to my first Blue Grass jam

    You can always chop the bottom two strings only until you get better with the full chords. I still do that sometimes. You can get 90% of the same sound as far as bluegrass goes that way.
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    Default Re: Went to my first Blue Grass jam

    + for 3 finger Chords.
    Also, when I first started going to BG jams I didn't know a lot of songs. Bought a small hand held recorder and took it to the jam and would record each song (as a separate file so I could rename them later) after whispering the title and key. Took it home and used it to practice chording and improvising. It took a while for my woodshedding to pay off. it seemed like no matter what I recorded next week it was something different.
    I also found if I had a guitar handy it was very easy to flake off and never get better on the mandolin. Still need the guitar to sing. Not sure why.

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    Default Re: Went to my first Blue Grass jam

    Quote Originally Posted by OlDanTucker View Post
    + for 3 finger Chords.
    Also, when I first started going to BG jams I didn't know a lot of songs. Bought a small hand held recorder and took it to the jam and would record each song (as a separate file so I could rename them later) after whispering the title and key. Took it home and used it to practice chording and improvising. It took a while for my woodshedding to pay off. it seemed like no matter what I recorded next week it was something different.
    I also found if I had a guitar handy it was very easy to flake off and never get better on the mandolin. Still need the guitar tosing. Not sure why.
    Still need the guitar to sing because you still use the guitar to sing ( flake off and depend on guitar) practice singing with mandolin and 2 or 3 finger chords till you can sorta do it then go to a jam and just do it. If you mess up laugh and try again, it's the only way to learn.

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    Default Re: Went to my first Blue Grass jam

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Egerton View Post
    You can always chop the bottom two strings only until you get better with the full chords. I still do that sometimes. You can get 90% of the same sound as far as bluegrass goes that way.
    Well, sort of...
    The thing is if it’s something you want to do properly, “Short chording” isn’t necessarily the way to go. Jesse’s three finger technique is something well worth understanding but, he also fully understood the four finger closed chord technique.
    A full, four finger chord is the way to get “Monroesque” chop. So, keep plugging away Tenzin, you will reach the summit after a few attempts.
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    Registered User Tenzin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Went to my first Blue Grass jam

    Aside from the amazing finger workouts from jazzmando.com, I'm mainly working on a couple of FFcP chord shapes (with a few open chords so as to play a few songs) trying to get a nice tone and more quickly switch between chords. So far I've got 'G' & 'C' shape chords and working them up and around the neck. Next comes… everything by Bill Monroe, David Grisman, and Chris Thile.... that should keep me busy for a while!

    Thanks for all the encouragement.

    And once the storm is over, you won’t remember how you made it through, how you managed to survive. You won’t even be sure, whether the storm is really over. But one thing is certain. When you come out of the storm, you won’t be the same person who walked in. That’s what this storm’s all about.

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    Registered User Bunnyf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Went to my first Blue Grass jam

    Quote Originally Posted by OlDanTucker View Post
    + for 3 finger Chords.
    I also found if I had a guitar handy it was very easy to flake off and never get better on the mandolin. Still need the guitar to sing. Not sure why.
    I stopped bringing a guitar too, for this very reason. It was a crutch.

    Also, when I first started going to jams (as a guitarist), I didnt record but I did write down names of songs, so I could work on them at home. With unfamiliar songs, I usually just follow the guitar players fingers the first time around, if they dont say the key.

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    Default Re: Went to my first Blue Grass jam

    Does the Long Island Bluegrass League (LIBL) still exist? There used to be monthly jams at various places - Amityville, some others.

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    Default Re: Went to my first Blue Grass jam

    I have no idea on how to improvise. My only guess is triads for major chords which although a start, is limited.
    One of the most helpful things I ever heard was Chris Thile explaining how he improvises solos. He said that he looks for the "hooks"that make the song recognizable, usually the verse will have at least one and the chorus will as well. Now, know your keys and scales and play something to fill in the time, preferably at least semi-melodically until it's time for one of the "hooks". Play the hook, then keep improvising until the next hook comes up.

    To understand and practice this methodology is to improve rapidly while sounding musical, instead of fast or busy.

    I am very jealous that you have found a group to grow with. Blessings

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    Default Re: Went to my first Blue Grass jam

    Quote Originally Posted by Tenzin View Post

    I have no idea on how to improvise. My only guess is triads for major chords which although a start, is limited.
    Thanks!
    I really like "The Mandolin Picker's Guide to Bluegrass Improvisation." Starts with simple arpeggios and pentatonic scales on basic keys and works up through double stops, cross picking, and keys that require closed position scales. Even though it says "Bluegrass," the book could work well for people playing folk, rock, pop, etc. Excellent book when you want to try to work out interesting arrangements or take a solo (or even just be more comfortable with little fills between verses or at ends of lines).
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    Registered User Doug Brock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Went to my first Blue Grass jam

    For the rhythm side of things, I really like Don Julin's "Mandolin for Dummies," (a good mandolin book in general) and specifically the section on three-note chords. The three-note chords are so musical and allow interesting voice leading and alterations and open up the fretboard for songs in any key. I now enjoy popping open songbooks and easily playing songs in keys like Eb or Bb or whatever. When I'm playing folk music by ear, now I can just worry about which pitch works best for the vocal lines, no matter the key (well, that works when I play by myself. Your learning to play comfortably in any key won't help other people you might be playing with be able to handle some traditionally more challenging keys! But if you are good with the three-note chords, then YOU won't be the problem.)
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    Default Re: Went to my first Blue Grass jam

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandoplumb View Post
    Still need the guitar to sing because you still use the guitar to sing ( flake off and depend on guitar) practice singing with mandolin and 2 or 3 finger chords till you can sorta do it then go to a jam and just do it. If you mess up laugh and try again, it's the only way to learn.
    Yep. Been working on exactly that. I've got about 8 songs I can get through (even with a break which seems to involve an entirely different part of the brain). Or, I can just play fiddle tunes when it's my turn.

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    Default Re: Went to my first Blue Grass jam

    Quote Originally Posted by OlDanTucker View Post
    I also found if I had a guitar handy it was very easy to flake off and never get better on the mandolin. Still need the guitar to sing. Not sure why.
    Chopping the offbeat with the mandolin while singing the onbeat is very challenging to get the hang of. I don't sing lead on many songs in my band, but those that I do I have to do a lot of rhythm practice.
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    Default Re: Went to my first Blue Grass jam

    Sounds like you're off to an amazing start! I'm a lifelong beginner even though I've been playing for about 3 1/2 years now. Feeling pretty good about those 4-finger chop chords these days -- I imagine I'll always need to work on them but it does get easier with time and smoother, and begins to feel natural. Just starting to improvise a tiny bit, when I get my courage up and practice it at home first! A few things have been particularly helpful:

    There's an iPad app called iReal Pro. I love that thing! It has a ton of bluegrass, old time and fiddle tunes, as well as a bunch of other songs, already loaded in, and it is not too difficult to input your own if you know the chords of the tune. It gives you a basic back-up band for any tune. You can set the tempo, the number of repetitions, or change the key. It's basically like having a metronome with chords and rhythm, so helpful for practicing the melody, or chords, or improvising with the chord back-up.

    And I'll give a shout out to Pete Martin. His website, petimarpress.com, has a ton of great resources, including videos and shareware books. The one on Mandolin and Fiddle Improvisation Using the Chord Tone Scale has really amped up my understanding of improvisation, and the practice exercises have given me the confidence to keep trying it. I do believe I'll get it some day! (And taking lessons from him via FaceTime has given me such a good foundation in all this.)

    The most recent thing that has been helpful for my pinky has been taking up the mandola -- that extra stretch, and increased need for the pinky on the Dola make the pinky use on the mandolin seem much easier than before.

    And I was incredibly lucky to have the first mandolin players I jammed with be so kind and patient and generous with helpful tips. If you can find mando-buddies like that, you are blessed indeed!
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