Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 39

Thread: Good camcorder and set up for recording a mandolin

  1. #1
    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    8,347
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Good camcorder and set up for recording a mandolin

    I’m tired of trying to make good recordings of my mandolins and other instruments (e.g., tenor banjo or mandocello) using my Logitec C920 webcam. These little webcams are cheap ($60) to buy and easy to install and use. They even have Zeiss optics for a 1080p resolution video but no matter what you do – even adding an external digital mic (they come with a mic jack) I have not been able to make good videos of high pitched and very loud instrument like a mandolin -- the video is great but the audio stinks. It is especially hard to avoid having distorted sound and the mandolin is always overwhelming the mic unless you record from the other side of the room?

    So I’ve been looking reviews on mobile “stand alone” (not hooked up to my desktop computer) for camcorder options. The range of options is as huge as is the price range. Most of the available devices offer great video quality but most of the reviewers for these units do not discuss the sound recording capability of the camcorder and this feature is of equal importance to me.

    I expect that many members on this board might use camcorders to record some of their music and maybe some have had a good experience with one recorder or another, Again, I would especially like a system that does well recording high pitch and loud instruments like mandolins and banjos. Any tips on the best digital microphone to use in conjunction with the camcorder would also be good to know.

    Added and optional:


    Here are some camcorders that I have found to be promising – maybe this information would be helpful for others too?

    The Panasonic HC-WXF991 seems to be the top of everyone’s list as the best camcorder but a person would probably have to pay at least $900 (on discount) to get one and perhaps big technology advantage, the 4000p resolution, is really overkill for anyone but a pro? Especially since most TVs etc. are only 1080p? Besides as noted I am more concerned about audio.

    A person could also go DSLR (digital single lens reflex) and get one of the Panasonic G7 series that also has 4000p – and costs about half as much. Again, none of the reviews mention the quality or capabilities of the audio recording available for anything other than the human voice.

    The JVC Quad Proof GZ-R440D EnvrioR seems highly rated and came be had at about a third the price of the Panasonic (~$300) and is very rugged (in fact it is designed for outdoor recording). It has 1080p resolution so videos should be very high quality – it has an external mic jack. On the downside it does not have an on board WiFi radio – not sure that either of those features/issues is a big deal for me though?

    Another camcorder that gets a lot of good reviews is the Samsung HMX-F90 which goes for around $400 and is also records in 1080p resolution – it also comes with some powerful built in video editing software do you can edit your videos before you download them. Again, I’m not sure this is a big advantage or not – I tend to do all my editing in things like the YouTube editor –i.e., nothing fancy? It also zooms to 130X but again that is a feature I don’t really need?

    Another one that seems very attractive to me is the Nikon KeyMission 80. This is a very small s camcorder yet is shoots high definition video in 1080p and supposedly works well under challenging light conditions. It is also designed for outdoor use and is “waterproof”. I’ll be mostly inside when I record unless I record at a an outdoor festival I guess. It sells for a little under $300.

    The Canon Vixia HF 600 is a step further down but still 1080p and it has a jack for an external mic. Or you could drop even further down in the Canon line and get the 300HS which sells for ~$100 – it has no jack for an external mic but has the microphone on the front of the camera so that would be better for recording your instrument perhaps? (on some camcorders the microphone records from the back (side of the videographer). Having the mic there would be less favored for doing instruments of course that will be in front of the lens.

    Of course the most popular option is probably just to get one of the GoPro series (e.g., the Hero model at ~$130 or the Hero-3 at ~ $200) to use an external mic with them it looks like you have to buy a “mic adapter” for $20. Many YouTube videos are made with GoPros or even the simple webcams but again most are not recording music instruments up close. I wonder if anyone on this board has used the GoPro for recording mandolins or jams and if you use an external digital mic – what kind?
    Bernie
    ____
    Due to current budgetary restrictions the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off -- sorry about the inconvenience.

  2. #2
    Registered User Jill McAuley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Co. Mayo, Ireland
    Posts
    3,569

    Default Re: Good camcorder and set up for recording a mandolin

    I have a GoPro and a ZoomQ8 camera - the audio on the Zoom is far superior, plus has the added benefit of a phantom power option so you can run another mic from it while filming (I find the mics it comes with to be pretty good though too). Image quality is great on the Q8 too.
    2018 Girouard Concert oval A
    2015 JP "Whitechapel" tenor banjo
    2018 Frank Tate tenor guitar
    1969 Martin 00-18




    my Youtube channel

  3. The following members say thank you to Jill McAuley for this post:


  4. #3

    Default Re: Good camcorder and set up for recording a mandolin

    Bernie,

    Built in mics on cameras are terrible. Maybe with the exception of something like the zoom (which isn't a great camera). The work around is to record the audio separately. In this case, a basic Zoom/Tascam is used and synced when the video is edited. This allows you to use really nice, relatively inexpensive mirrorless/DSLR cameras and still get good audio. The next option is a camera with XLR inputs. These are typically starting over $1000 (and you still need mics).

    For cameras without XLR inputs, you could still use a small digital recorder with the out into the mic input. This isn't always straightforward and the result can vary. The type of mics that can be camera mounted with a 1/8 output work acceptable for certain situations. The better ones will be somewhat expensive and you end up limited by placement. The camera location is not always the best place to put your mics.

    I am a fan of Micro 4/3 cameras. I am currently using a Panasonic GH5. The onboard mics are some of the best I have heard on a camera like this.... They are still completely unacceptable.

    On camcorder vs something like the G7. Almost without exception, the camera will have significantly better image quality and especially low light capability. The Camcorder will be easier to use.

    4k video.... Mostly not needed. It eats up massive storage space and it can choke a slower computer when trying to edit. A good quality 1080P camera will produce great footage. I use 4k for selling stock video clips and the ability to do cropping and pans in editing. Past that, there is not a lot of practical use for most people.
    Robert Fear
    http://www.folkmusician.com

    "Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don't.
    " - Pete Seeger

  5. The following members say thank you to Folkmusician.com for this post:


  6. #4
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Pacific Northwest, USA
    Posts
    5,293

    Default Re: Good camcorder and set up for recording a mandolin

    I second the comment about on-camera audio being terrible (usually, with a few exceptions like the Zoom). Ideally, you want separate positioning of the mic closer to the instrument, with the camera at whatever framing distance is appropriate. Using mics on the camera with a wide shot will pick up too much of the room ambiance.

    The relatively cheap solution is a decent pocket recorder like a Zoom or Tascam recording "wild" sound, with the camera recording a reference audio track. Then align the two audio waveforms in a video editor and mute the reference track when you're done. Use a hand clap when the recording starts, for a sync point.

    FWIW, the last time I did this (for a friend's duo), I used a DSLR with a Zoom H5 for audio, with the Zoom's two XLR inputs connected to mic cables and a pair of small diaphragm condenser mics on low booms near the two performers. I had an AC adapter on the Zoom because phantom power eats batteries. Then I sync'd audio in the editor for the final clip. In a pinch, I could have just used the Zoom H5 by itself near the two performers.

    If you're recording yourself on video, it helps to use a camera with a swivel viewfinder screen you can see from the front when framing the shot. You can frame by trial and error, but it's nice to see what the actual framing is before you hit record. If it's a DSLR without a swivel viewfinder, you can get small battery-powered monitor screens that clip to the hotshoe mount on top, facing forward.

  7. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to foldedpath For This Useful Post:


  8. #5
    Registered User almeriastrings's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Almeria, Spain
    Posts
    5,442
    Blog Entries
    3

    Default Re: Good camcorder and set up for recording a mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Folkmusician.com View Post

    I am a fan of Micro 4/3 cameras. I am currently using a Panasonic GH5. The onboard mics are some of the best I have heard on a camera like this.... They are still completely unacceptable.
    +1.

    Terrific camera. Incredibly good lenses. Onboard mics = as usual!

    You can go in via a mini-jack, but for this camera there is a better option. The DMW-XLR1 XLR adapter. This bypasses the internal audio electronics completely.

    You can:

    a) Use just about any phantom powered mic with it directly

    or

    b) Send in line level from a mixer.

    It works really well.

    Not exactly cheap, but it does work well... you can then use the camera track for synch purposes (or, in most cases, it is good enough to use 'as is' without any post-synch work required.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	GH5_XLR.jpg 
Views:	118 
Size:	422.8 KB 
ID:	171006

    Here it is being fed from a Sound Devices Mixpre-D.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	GH5_XLR2.jpg 
Views:	135 
Size:	447.3 KB 
ID:	171007

    You can also go in at mic level from the Mixpre via the minijack... but then you hit the audio preamp electronics inside the camera....
    Gibson F5 'Harvey' Fern, Gibson F5 'Derrington' Fern
    Distressed Silverangel F 'Esmerelda' aka 'Maxx'
    Northfield Big Mon #127
    Ellis F5 Special #288
    '39 & '45 D-18's, 1950 D-28.

  9. The following members say thank you to almeriastrings for this post:


  10. #6

    Default Re: Good camcorder and set up for recording a mandolin

    I have a Zoom Q4 that works great. Video is pretty good and audio is very good, easy to record and upload.
    Northfield F5M #268, AT02 #7

  11. The following members say thank you to bigskygirl for this post:


  12. #7
    Registered User Mark Seale's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    1,055

    Default Re: Good camcorder and set up for recording a mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by foldedpath View Post
    I second the comment about on-camera audio being terrible (usually, with a few exceptions like the Zoom). Ideally, you want separate positioning of the mic closer to the instrument, with the camera at whatever framing distance is appropriate. Using mics on the camera with a wide shot will pick up too much of the room ambiance.

    The relatively cheap solution is a decent pocket recorder like a Zoom or Tascam recording "wild" sound, with the camera recording a reference audio track. Then align the two audio waveforms in a video editor and mute the reference track when you're done. Use a hand clap when the recording starts, for a sync point.

    FWIW, the last time I did this (for a friend's duo), I used a DSLR with a Zoom H5 for audio, with the Zoom's two XLR inputs connected to mic cables and a pair of small diaphragm condenser mics on low booms near the two performers. I had an AC adapter on the Zoom because phantom power eats batteries. Then I sync'd audio in the editor for the final clip. In a pinch, I could have just used the Zoom H5 by itself near the two performers.

    If you're recording yourself on video, it helps to use a camera with a swivel viewfinder screen you can see from the front when framing the shot. You can frame by trial and error, but it's nice to see what the actual framing is before you hit record. If it's a DSLR without a swivel viewfinder, you can get small battery-powered monitor screens that clip to the hotshoe mount on top, facing forward.
    Any recommendations on editors?

  13. #8
    fishing with my mando darrylicshon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    atlanta
    Posts
    1,303

    Default Re: Good camcorder and set up for recording a mandolin

    I have a zoom qn2 which I'm happy with the video and audio, really easy to use
    Ibanez 70's 524, 521, 3 511's,2 512's,513,1 514,3 80s 513's, 522
    J Bovier F5-T custom shop
    Kiso Suzuki V900,
    The Loar lm600 Cherryburst
    morgan monroe mms-5wc,ovation
    Michael Kelly Octave Mandolin
    Emandos Northfield octave tele 4, Northfield custom jem octave mandolin 5 octave strat 8
    2 Flying v 8, octave 5, Exploryer octave 8 20"
    Fender mandostrat 4,3 Epip mandobird 2,4/8, Kentucky. KM300E Eastwood mandocaster
    Gold Tone F6,Badaax doubleneck 8/6

  14. The following members say thank you to darrylicshon for this post:


  15. #9
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Pacific Northwest, USA
    Posts
    5,293

    Default Re: Good camcorder and set up for recording a mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Seale View Post
    Any recommendations on editors?
    Back when I did that project I used Adobe Premier Elements, the more basic version of the higher-end Premier. It's a decent entry-level editor, costs something like $100 but you can probably find it cheaper. I think it's still standalone, but check to make sure Adobe hasn't moved into their subscription category.

    At one point I had my eye on DaVinci Resolve before I got distracted away from getting deeper into video. It may do more than you need, like color grading, but I think there is a free version you could check out. I haven't kept up with what's current and good these days, so maybe someone else will jump in with recommendations (paging Almeriastrings?).

  16. #10

    Default Re: Good camcorder and set up for recording a mandolin

    The DMW-XLR1 XLR adapter
    Been trying to come up with a reason to buy this, but not sure I would use it enough to justify. Does it do ok with Dynamics?

    I have been using a Rode Videomicro on camera. A little noisy, but in many ways better than the VideoMic Pro to my ears.

    This is what I carry around for unplanned shooting:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_8939.jpg 
Views:	118 
Size:	236.5 KB 
ID:	171010

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_8940.jpg 
Views:	148 
Size:	218.6 KB 
ID:	171011
    Robert Fear
    http://www.folkmusician.com

    "Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don't.
    " - Pete Seeger

  17. #11
    Registered User Walt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    West Monroe, LA
    Posts
    414

    Default Re: Good camcorder and set up for recording a mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Folkmusician.com View Post
    I am a fan of Micro 4/3 cameras. I am currently using a Panasonic GH5.
    +1 for either a mirrorless camera or a DSLR. You'll have to spend a little time learning how to set the ISO, aperture, etc., but it isn't difficult. If you're looking for a reasonable priced setup, I'd suggest:
    --Canon T5i with kit lens $539
    --Rode VideoMic Go $73

    And if you get more adventurous later on, you can buy a faster lens (like the 50mm or 28mm), and download Magic Lantern onto the camera, which opens up a lot of options for tweaking your video quality.

  18. #12

    Default Re: Good camcorder and set up for recording a mandolin

    Here's another vote for the Panasonics! (NFI)

    My off the cuff suggestion is to get a used G7 on ebay with the 14-42 kit lens. I just picked up this package with a bunch of extra batteries and other accessories for ~$250. It's some of the highest quality video you are going to get for the money, and you can get some nicer prime lenses for pretty cheap too (14mm 2.5 is good, as is the 25mm 1.7). For Audio, I'd recommend a Zoom H1, I hid mine just off frame for hundreds of MandoLessons videos, which I used first the GH3 and then the G85 (G85 is essentially the G7 with in body image stabilization, which you won't need assuming you are locking down the shot on a tripod)

    Here's a live stream I did recently with the G7 and a $200 Rokinon 12mm lens (if I remember correctly)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-Ql76_bFcU.

    It's only at 1080p and not a huge bitrate at that, so the quality you'll get from normal use is even better. The audio isn't the best on that example because I had been tinkering with some new mics (not the trusty H1) moments before going live, but here's the average sound with the h1 just off frame (video is G85).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TO97-S5C4Q0

    A used G7 with the kit lens, a zoom H1, a cheap lighting setup if you are in a dark space, and you have some serious video and audio quality for under $500 bucks.

    Good luck!
    Baron
    MandoLessons: Free Online Mandolin Lessons
    Velocipede: My Fiddle Tune Duo
    Old Time Mandolin: Solo Old Time Mandolin Album

  19. The following members say thank you to Baron Collins-Hill for this post:


  20. #13
    Registered User John Kelly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Ardnadam, Argyll, Scotland
    Posts
    2,280

    Default Re: Good camcorder and set up for recording a mandolin

    I have gone the way that Foldedpath suggests, using a cheap Sanyo camcorder and my Tascam DR-05. Before that I used the camcorder and recorded the audio on my laptop via REAPER, and synced the audio with the camera's sound, by handclap or more usually an opening chord on the mandolin or guitar, then muted the camera sound from the final mix. The Tascam gives me more freedom and lets me record in wav format for better sound, though of course after rendering to mp3 then uploading to YouTube or wherever else the sound has been drastically compressed anyway!
    My editing software is Sony Vegas and I run it on a Windows 7 desktop. Many of my most recent postings on the SAW group have been done in this way, and if making a video using background pictures or film clips rather than actually filming the instrument being played, there is not even the need to sync the soundtracks from the camera and Tascam or laptop.
    I'm playing all the right notes, but not necessarily in the right order. - Eric Morecambe

    http://www.youtube.com/user/TheOldBores

  21. #14

    Default Re: Good camcorder and set up for recording a mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Folkmusician.com View Post
    Been trying to come up with a reason to buy this, but not sure I would use it enough to justify. Does it do ok with Dynamics?
    The XLR adaptor sure isn't cheap, but it's extremely convenient. The long story from my previous post is I just picked up a GH5 on Craigslist along with the XLR adaptor and the battery grip for a good price. The preamps are pretty good, though I've only used them once so far and my setup doesn't generally require pushing them in challenging conditions:

    https://youtu.be/Zs7zyqc3Gw0

    In the above example I am running two shotgun mics (deity s-mic 2's) that are just out of frame (one for voice one for one for mando) into the adaptor, and I think I am going to be very happy with the sound once I have more experience with it. The fact that I can put a dummy battery in the camera, attach the adaptor, and run phantom to two mics forever and never worry about syncing in post again is a very nice and compact setup.

    My favorite audio guy on YouTube also has good things to say about the adaptor

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bug7hxq-4M

    I hope this helps,
    Baron
    MandoLessons: Free Online Mandolin Lessons
    Velocipede: My Fiddle Tune Duo
    Old Time Mandolin: Solo Old Time Mandolin Album

  22. #15

    Default Re: Good camcorder and set up for recording a mandolin

    Also Robert, if you haven't already, turn the in camera preamps all the way or most of the way when using the Rode VideoMicro and see if that helps. Close micing is always going to be king, but the VideoMicro does a decent job for a tiny and cheap on camera mic. Some people also boom it out closer to the audio source, I assume with some sort of extension cable.

    Thanks,
    Baron
    MandoLessons: Free Online Mandolin Lessons
    Velocipede: My Fiddle Tune Duo
    Old Time Mandolin: Solo Old Time Mandolin Album

  23. #16

    Default Re: Good camcorder and set up for recording a mandolin

    Baron,

    Congrats on the GH5! It is a beast of a camera. I would like better low light, and shallow depth of field, but I still feel it was the best overall choice (we won't talk about autofocus).

    I have been very happy with the VideoMicro. Price wasn't really the concern when I bought it. I mainly just wanted something that was acceptable for run and gun stuff. The lack of batteries and small size was a major benefit, but what really surprised me was the overall quality (sans noise). I have used it with the phone and Zoom as well. One of the best value purchases I have ever made.

    I'll check levels on the GH5. I set it when I first got it, and never touched the gain after that. I have been having a difficult time working out the audio side of my kit. My use is predominantly dialog but I have a wide range of projects going on. Interviews, Podcasts, voiceover. The complication is keeping it compact for travel. I have condenser mics, but SM-58 mics have been producing the best results under these circumstances. They just need a tremendous amount of gain. I was thinking about trying a cloud lifter. An SM7b is on the purchase list. Apparently they need even more gain than a 58.
    Robert Fear
    http://www.folkmusician.com

    "Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don't.
    " - Pete Seeger

  24. #17

    Default Re: Good camcorder and set up for recording a mandolin

    Zoom Qn2 will give you Zoom H2 recording quality (very good, not pro, but very good) with a decent video recorder. Simple and concentrate on playing instead of technology and syncing video/sound later.
    2010 Heiden A5, 2020 Pomeroy oval A, 2013 Kentucky KM1000 F5, 2012 Girouard A Mandola w ff holes, 2001 Old Wave A oval octave
    http://HillbillyChamberMusic.bandcamp.com
    Videos: https://www.youtube.com/@hillbillychambermusic

  25. The following members say thank you to Don Grieser for this post:


  26. #18
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Pacific Northwest, USA
    Posts
    5,293

    Default Re: Good camcorder and set up for recording a mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Grieser View Post
    Zoom Qn2 will give you Zoom H2 recording quality (very good, not pro, but very good) with a decent video recorder. Simple and concentrate on playing instead of technology and syncing video/sound later.
    That's a nice simple setup, but it only works well (IMO) for those typical YouTube close shots, framed tight on the instrument, where you only see the right and left hands playing and not much else. That puts the built-in mics close enough for a decent audio capture, although maybe still not in the ideal location.

    For anything else, like a full head and shoulders or full body shot of the performer, the mic-on-camera will be far enough away to capture the room acoustics, which suck, for most of us shooting at home. And also ambient noise like HVAC or street traffic. That's not something you can easily edit out. A good video puts the mics where you'd put them for an audio-only recording, with the camera where it needs to be. Those are not often in the same exact location, which is what you're stuck with, when using on-camera mics.

    If the only thing you'll do is those tight shots, then yes, a Zoom videocam can work well, and it's an easy one-gadget solution with far better sound than most videocams using just the onboard mics and preamps.

  27. #19
    Registered User almeriastrings's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Almeria, Spain
    Posts
    5,442
    Blog Entries
    3

    Default Re: Good camcorder and set up for recording a mandolin

    1) XLR adapter and dynamic mics

    Frankly, I haven't even tried... but I would really not expect great things for a whole range of reasons. These include the fact that you need very large amounts of gain with these (typically 65-75dB) and mic preamps that offer truly quiet gain at those levels are never cheap. I will test it later, just for curiosity though. I also don't recall ever using a dynamic mic when doing audio for video or TV, not in 40 years.... It is condensers all the way. If you want to have a vocalist using a dynamic - no problem though. Just take a feed from the desk, or insert a separate small mic preamp and go line-level into the XLR adapter... but dynamics direct to camera? No, not in my experience.

    2) Video Editing programs

    My personal choice is Final Cut Pro X, but that is Mac only of course. Takes a bit of getting your head around, but it is fantastically capable. You do need a 'loaded' Mac to get the best from it. Lots of RAM and big, fast drives, preferably some SSD's for active edits. Even more so with 4K.

    DaVinci Resolve is also superb (Mac and Win). I have it on my system too and I like it a lot. The latest version (15) is awesome. The best bit? It's free! Yes, really... the only features 'missing' from the free vs. paid version are a very few things that most people would never need anyway outside of a pro editing suite (collaborative networking features, control surface support, a few expensive plugins etc.). 99% of it is still there. It is not the heavily cut down 'free' stuff you usually see, but is totally useable 'as is'. Highly recommend giving it a go. Only proviso is it (again) needs a pretty well specified system to run with a good video card and lots of memory. That is true of all these 'pro level' video editors, however. None of them will run on antiques.
    Gibson F5 'Harvey' Fern, Gibson F5 'Derrington' Fern
    Distressed Silverangel F 'Esmerelda' aka 'Maxx'
    Northfield Big Mon #127
    Ellis F5 Special #288
    '39 & '45 D-18's, 1950 D-28.

  28. #20
    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    8,347
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Re: Good camcorder and set up for recording a mandolin

    Here is a video that was made about the Zoom Qn4 camcorder. Most of the video is recorded with the Qn4 and around 2:30 he gives examples of the two lens setting close up and wide angle and then around 4:30 he gives some examples of the three sensitivity settings on audio. Also a section on the controls and the settings. It gives a good idea of what the camcorder will do for you.



    And here is another -- a review by a musician who might have needs similar to some here?

    Last edited by Bernie Daniel; Sep-12-2018 at 1:21am.
    Bernie
    ____
    Due to current budgetary restrictions the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off -- sorry about the inconvenience.

  29. #21
    Registered User almeriastrings's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Almeria, Spain
    Posts
    5,442
    Blog Entries
    3

    Default Re: Good camcorder and set up for recording a mandolin

    One other thought... just on the DSLR vs. 'camcorder' scenario. DSLR's are small, hugely versatile and can deliver top notch results. As can some other mirror-less formats (I actually have a tiny Lumix GX85/80 Micro-four thirds camera myself for 'b-roll stuff - it's great). Really, the only downside to pretty much all of them is on the ergonomics and connectivity fronts. Results-wise, they deliver. It is the 'fiddly' bit that in some cases gets in the way though. You often need 'add ons' and accessing many functions can involve delving through menus. That is why 'traditional' format camcorders are still used in many situations. You have everything you need right there, usually driven by buttons, knobs and dials rather than menus. They're fast and logical in use. You also have important stuff like XLR's, SDI outputs, time code, dual-card recording (the GH5 also has this, mind) and similar things already there. No messing. The other HUGE advantage is a 'proper' viewfinder... way better than a screen in brighter lighting conditions. The non-interchangeable lens can also, surprisingly, be an advantage in some environments. No way for dust to get in. No need to decide 'what lens?'. You pick it up. Turn it on, and you are ready to roll. In fast-moving production situations that can be critical. Most TV stuff you see is still shot on this kind of gear for these very reasons. I'm using a Panasonic AG-UX180 right now a lot (as well as the GH5). I send it the audio from a Sound Devices 633 or Mixpre-D.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	4Kcam.jpg 
Views:	123 
Size:	651.6 KB 
ID:	171032

    This is what this kind of rig looks like 'in action' (cam here is a Sony, I seem to recall it was a PMW-300K2 on a recent reality TV shoot here in Spain:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	RealityTV.jpg 
Views:	131 
Size:	640.9 KB 
ID:	171033

    Boom Op is sending the overhead shotgun mic via wireless to the mixer. She is then feeding a hard-wired send to the camera, as well as taking a simultaneous recording to a recorder in her bag. In these situations, that's mainly backup, as 99% of the time they'll use the audio recorded on the camera (for speed and ease in editing).

    Sorry, Bernie! Strayed off a bit here, and the above is total overkill for recording a mandolin! Thought it might be interesting to get a different perspective on all this 'gear stuff' though...
    Gibson F5 'Harvey' Fern, Gibson F5 'Derrington' Fern
    Distressed Silverangel F 'Esmerelda' aka 'Maxx'
    Northfield Big Mon #127
    Ellis F5 Special #288
    '39 & '45 D-18's, 1950 D-28.

  30. The following members say thank you to almeriastrings for this post:

    Seter 

  31. #22
    Registered User almeriastrings's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Almeria, Spain
    Posts
    5,442
    Blog Entries
    3

    Default Re: Good camcorder and set up for recording a mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    Here is a video that was made about the Zoom Qn2 camcorder.
    To be honest - that's pretty dire in all respects.

    A used Lumix G7 with the 14-42 or 12-32 'kit' lens would absolutely kill that..... as recommended by Baron. That's where I'd start.

    Likewise a used GX85 with the 12-32....

    Just add in any separate had-held recorder and you'd get both audio and video quality that would satisfy you for a long time to come.
    Gibson F5 'Harvey' Fern, Gibson F5 'Derrington' Fern
    Distressed Silverangel F 'Esmerelda' aka 'Maxx'
    Northfield Big Mon #127
    Ellis F5 Special #288
    '39 & '45 D-18's, 1950 D-28.

  32. The following members say thank you to almeriastrings for this post:


  33. #23
    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    8,347
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Re: Good camcorder and set up for recording a mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by almeriastrings View Post
    To be honest - that's pretty dire in all respects.

    A used Lumix G7 with the 14-42 or 12-32 'kit' lens would absolutely kill that..... as recommended by Baron. That's where I'd start.

    Likewise a used GX85 with the 12-32....

    Just add in any separate had-held recorder and you'd get both audio and video quality that would satisfy you for a long time to come.
    Thanks for the thoughts. I looked at reviews for the two Panasonic cameras (Luminx G7 and GX85) as well a competing brands like the Cannon T61 or Sony a6000 and also the Nikon D5500 and there are some by Olympus too.

    For sure, like you say, these are different (higher) level of performance but at something like 2 -3 times the price? I'm guessing the cost just guess based on the price of a used Panasonic Luminx G7 I saw -- asking about $450?

    One other point that occurs to me as I look through all these very useful posts in this string. I am actually not looking to make professional or near professional level videos just something that I might call "decent" to use for YouTube or to share with friends.

    I don't mind paying more money for higher quality even if it is more than I need as long as the "ease of use" factor stays similar?

    But the other thought I had as I consider all of this is that perhaps 90% of the videos I take will be filming myself alone with an instrument or with two others and so having live screen to monitor in real time what I'm shooting (like the Zoom has) seems like a big advantage?
    Bernie
    ____
    Due to current budgetary restrictions the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off -- sorry about the inconvenience.

  34. #24

    Default Re: Good camcorder and set up for recording a mandolin

    Re: Sony A6000 (I had one for a few years). First of all, great stills camera. Autofocus was excellent. Low light was great. I was able to get really good image quality. Small, lens were inexpensive. Great upgrade path. It was a great value.

    Shortcomings. No mic input. You can use a sony brand mic in the hotshot. That is it. Not a problem if you are using an external recorder (which I did). Screen does not flip out. No way to monitor with it pointed at you. MAJOR hassle.

    Battery life wasn't great.. not a deal breaker.

    Most current cameras can be controlled and monitored via wifi on a phone or tablet. With the A6000, this was only possible in photo mode, not video.

    Still, the quality was so good for the size and cost that I would still consider it.
    A6300 and above resolved most of the problems.
    --------

    The main problem that everyone mentions is Mic vs camera placement. There is just no way to over come this. They need to be independent to obtain good results. Wiring mics to the camera is fine, but mics integrated or mounted on the camera severely limit you.


    That said, it does complicate things (though it isn't as bad as it sounds once you get used to it). What about giving the Zoom camera a try. It may work out fine for your needs. Most places offer 30 day returns.


    With the zoom, trying to get 2-3 people in the shot means placing the camera fairly far off. This may be acceptable for you, but there are compromises. I just looked at the Q8 and see that it has the interchangeable mics as well as XLRs with Phantom. This means you can use the ECM-3 extension cable to move around the stereo pair and still attach two additional mics and get them in the correct position. This really wouldn't be bad if you were happy with the camera portion. I don't think the QN4 would be the best option, but the QN8 may work well for you.


    https://www.zoom-na.com/products/pro...phone-capsules


    One of the best ways to monitor with any of these is via a tv or computer monitor. Most of the cameras will output via HDMI. This can go to a regular tv or direct to most recent monitors via HDMI or DVI. I have a 5 year old 24" monitor that I use. Again, it is complicating things, but you can actually see what is going on vs. a tiny screen on the camera where you really can't if it is a few feet away.
    Last edited by Folkmusician.com; Sep-12-2018 at 11:56am.
    Robert Fear
    http://www.folkmusician.com

    "Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don't.
    " - Pete Seeger

  35. #25
    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    8,347
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Re: Good camcorder and set up for recording a mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Folkmusician.com View Post
    Re: Sony A6000 (I had one for a few years). First of all, great stills camera. Autofocus was excellent. Low light was great. I was able to get really good image quality. Small, lens were inexpensive. Great upgrade path. It was a great value.

    Shortcomings. No mic input. You can use a sony brand mic in the hotshot. That is it. Not a problem if you are using an external recorder (which I did). Screen does not flip out. No way to monitor with it pointed at you. MAJOR hassle.

    Battery life wasn't great.. not a deal breaker.

    Most current cameras can be controlled and monitored via wifi on a phone or tablet. With the A6000, this was only possible in photo mode, not video.

    Still, the quality was so good for the size and cost that I would still consider it.
    A6300 and above resolved most of the problems.
    --------

    The main problem that everyone mentions is Mic vs camera placement. There is just no way to over come this. They need to be independent to obtain good results. Wiring mics to the camera is fine, but mics integrated or mounted on the camera severely limit you.


    That said, it does complicate things (though it isn't as bad as it sounds once you get used to it). What about giving the Zoom camera a try. It may work out fine for your needs. Most places offer 30 day returns.


    With the zoom, trying to get 2-3 people in the shot means placing the camera fairly far off. This may be acceptable for you, but there are compromises. I just looked at the Q8 and see that it has the interchangeable mics as well as XLRs with Phantom. This means you can use the ECM-3 extension cable to move around the stereo pair and still attach two additional mics and get them in the correct position. This really wouldn't be bad if you were happy with the camera portion. I don't think the QN4 would be the best option, but the QN8 may work well for you.


    https://www.zoom-na.com/products/pro...phone-capsules


    One of the best ways to monitor with any of these is via a tv or computer monitor. Most of the cameras will output via HDMI. This can go to a regular tv or direct to most recent monitors via HDMI or DVI. I have a 5 year old 24" monitor that I use. Again, it is complicating things, but you can actually see what is going on vs. a tiny screen on the camera where you really can't if it is a few feet away.
    Thanks! Lots of great thoughts and ideas there. I can certainly appreciate the need for the camera and the microphone to be individually located for the best video AND audio result. For sure something like a Zoom Qn4 is a big compromise -- trading off quality of the recording for simplicity and cost. For some quality is paramount -- for me at this point "significantly above average" might be all I want -- for now.

    That said my views might change as I get into this.

    One comment you made about being able to monitor the scene on a TV or a computer monitor (if it has hdmi) might be a game changer for sure. The simple Logitech webcam essentially does that except that the sound quality -- even using a Samson digital mic with it is not very good.

    But that arrangement would permit using some kind of high grad DSLR camera, and a remote microphone and still be able to monitor the recording in real time. Then in addition to better videos I have also have a high quality camera to use for other things like wildlife photography etc.,as well.

    I'm thinking I might do what you suggest and try a simpler less expensive set up at first and then see how it evolves.

    I know 200% more today than I did when I started this string. Thanks to all who contributed and I hope it was useful for others too.
    Bernie
    ____
    Due to current budgetary restrictions the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off -- sorry about the inconvenience.

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •