When or why to upgrade

[Br1ck]

The myth that somehow you need to be worthy to buy a fine instrument is hogwash. All you need is the money. Regardless of your ability, you can appreciate a nice mandolin as well as anyone.

I look at it this way,you are investing in yourself and your happiness. My car has 195,000 miles on it. I could care less, but having fine instruments is necessary for my well being. I do live within reason however, and have found my cost comfort zone.

I would suggest the gateway for you would be a used$1500 something or other. Once you have a rich sounding G string there is no going back. If you need an F, and believe me I understand, look to spend $2500. Impossible to make a mistake at this basic level.nLots of buyers if you'd like to try something else.

[Folkmusician.com]

I'm curious as to why the gentleman who's in the business says that only one out of a thousand will need a better mandolin. Are the low-end Kentuckys that good? (I like mine.) Will almost everyone who starts mandolin bail out before long? Are almost all of us hacks, incapable of ever doing justice to a better mandolin?

A well setup KM-150 is good, and I dare say "good enough". There are certainly better mandolins and even a beginner will hear the difference in tone between a KM-150 and a top tier instrument. No doubt there are reasons to want a better mandolin. I also agree that you don't need to justify it. Simply appreciating nice things is plenty reason to buy a better mandolin.

Need is a little different in my opinion. Most touring musicians could play lessor grade instruments and not sound significantly different. They are performing in less than ideal conditions, often amplified and even in an ideal acoustic setting, the performance would still be enjoyable to the audience on an average quality mandolin.

I am not saying they shouldn't have a top level mandolin. They can get more out of it, they can certainly justify it. I am just not convinced that it is critical for most players. Of course there are a few exceptions where the playing is into virtuoso and it could be impossible to pull off on anything less than a top level mandolin.

Recording, it always makes sense to have the best sounding mandolin possible. Still, many styles wouldn't benefit all that much from a better mandolin. Good quality acoustic recordings, yes. A rock, country or pop song, not so much.

I didn't mean to insinuate that people couldn't tell the difference or were somehow not worthy. Just that in the majority of practical situations, you wouldn't be held back by something like a KM-150.

[Randi Gormley]

since the title is when and why to upgrade and you asked where to go from being perfectly fine with your first upgrade and as an intermediate player -- i can only say that you upgrade when you're dissatisfied with what you have. it's certainly easy to find more expensive instruments, it's certainly easy to find different-sounding instruments, but if you are considering upgrading for any reason except that you're dissatisfied with what you have, then you might as well chase that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. I own half a dozen instruments that cost about the same (sub $500) although they sound different. And they were perfectly fine for me until i thought i wanted more bass. and then i wanted something not quite so tinny in the top ranges. I could live with both -- a bit of tinniness, a bit weak in the bass. it was only when I found an instrument with a nice bottom on it and a lovely top range that i upgraded. because, frankly, as long as i could play with others and enjoy playing, what i had was fine. frankly, they're still fine instruments -- i still own many of them. i use them for fallback -- and they're still fine to play. but they don't have the bass I want. if i hadn't wanted to improve a specific kind of tone, i'd still be playing my sub-$500 instruments.

[kurth83]

This video has made the rounds recently, seems appropriate here too:

It's a video demoing a $50 rover, a $350 Kentucky, and a $4500 Ellis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr8IB5rQXps

[RickPick]

I upgraded from a Chinese Loar 520 to a Weber Fern that cost 15 times as much. The Weber doesn't SOUND or PLAY 15 times better than the Loar, but I hardly ever touch the Loar any more, unless I'm called upon to play outdoors in a sandstorm. You don't HAVE to upgrade, but you'll love it when you do!

[allenhopkins]

1. Decide how much you can afford, or want to spend, and stick to it (as best you can).

2. Go to the Music Emporium (I take it to be the store everybody is carefully not identifying), and play all the mandolins in your price range. Do Not play more expensive instruments, tempting though they may be, 'cause then you won't be satisfied with the ones you can afford.

3. If you don't find anything that's significantly better than your KM-150, take a pass, and come back in a few more months to see what new inventory's arrived.

4. Don't feel that it's a question of "need." You have a decent entry-to-mid-range instrument now. There are esthetics and acoustics you can get from a $1K mandolin, above and beyond the one you've got. Expensive mandolins should not be "easier to play" than what you have, but there are different neck profiles that may suit you better. You may like the feel better, and you may hear an improvement in sound, but that's not guaranteed.

5. The worst thing is to start "churning" through a series of slightly better instruments, paying retail, selling or trading in at wholesale, and spending a lot for little improvement. You might listen closely to other mandolins that you hear at bluegrass jams, concerts, or wherever, and decide if there's a sound (or a look, or a "feel') worth the extra cash.

[Br1ck]

I agree about the incremental thing. All you will get is pretty. But I think you need to educate yourself to what is about $500 more than what you want to spend. Dangerous for sure. If you want to spend $1500, play a couple of $2000 mandolins just so you know. You may not hear better, just different. Or maybe you decide to wait because that extra $500 just knocks your socks off.

But I took my $1400 Silverangel into Gryphon, and it hung in there with $4500 mandolins. A really good thing to know.At this level it becomes subjective. Now you say the word bluegrass, so it complicates things a bunch because you just jumped to the $2500 an up for a scroll.

[yankees1]

Can be Need ! Can be want ! Can be future investment ! Depends ! No concrete answer! Probably want for most ! Back in my early days when I had no money or at least not a lot I was playing a fiddle or at least was trying! I decided I wanted to upgrade ( want) and somehow came up with the twelve thousand dollars it took to purchase a Peresson violin ( investment) ! I for sure didn't ( Need) it and everyone thought I was crazy ! Probably correct ! Fast forward-my daughter now plays on this Peresson which now sells for over fifty thousand dollars !! ( Investment) As long as you can afford it and not taking food off the table go for it !

[Eric Platt]

Here's my take - upgrade when/if you start hearing things you want to play that you can't get from your current mandolin. Not because of your playing ability, but because the instrument itself can't make the sound the way you want to hear it.

And it may be that your current mandolin is just fine to hear what you want and plays the music you want to hear just fine. A more expensive instrument will be different. Better is in the eye (and ear) of the buyer and seller.

As Allen points out above, if you are going to buy something different, make it a big enough difference that you are not constantly "upgrading" in small steps, where you lose money on each transaction.

[Paul Busman]

1. Decide how much you can afford, or want to spend, and stick to it (as best you can).

2. Go to the Music Emporium (I take it to be the store everybody is carefully not identifying), and play all the mandolins in your price range. Do Not play more expensive instruments, tempting though they may be, 'cause then you won't be satisfied with the ones you can afford..

I disagree-- play everything,if possible,without first looking at the price tags. Bring along your own mando and play that against each instrument. You may be surprised to find modest instruments that you love, and very expensive ones that just don't do it for you. I did this at Elderly one time and was very surprised.

[jaycat]

. . . Bring along your own mando and play that against each instrument. . . .

Great idea. All Kentuckys are not created equal. I have one friend with a Kentucky with absolutely killer punch, and another guy I know has one that sounds like rubber bands on a pie plate.

[mtm]

Boy, if I was to get a really nice mandolin, then I'd be expected to PLAY really nicely. When I see a person with a nice model, I expect (rightly or not) some fireworks. I gots no fireworks. There is so much competition for my entertainment that for now, the Eastman is still way better than me. But, I started with a cheap Savannah and my goodness, was the Eastman a step up. So, I agree with the above that if you want it, and can afford it, and it makes you happy ... go for it.

[CHASAX]

Try mandolins in the shop.
Then go home.
Go back another day and try them again.
This is a very subjective process. What you like one day may not be what you like the next time.
Go home and think it over.

[J.Albert]

Take a trip to the Music Emporium in Lexington and check out what they have to offer.

What do your ears and eyes tell you?

[Br1ck]

Try mandolins in the shop.
Then go home.
Go back another day and try them again.
This is a very subjective process. What you like one day may not be what you like the next time.
Go home and think it over.

In my lifetime, I've missed out on two instruments by going home to sleep on it. Especially if a used instrument speaks to you, you should pounce. At some point you need to trust your senses. This does get easier with experience.

[fatt-dad]

it's time to upgrade when you have enough money for a Collings MT.

f-d

[Br1ck]

Boy, if I was to get a really nice mandolin, then I'd be expected to PLAY really nicely. When I see a person with a nice model, I expect (rightly or not) some fireworks. I gots no fireworks. There is so much competition for my entertainment that for now, the Eastman is still way better than me. But, I started with a cheap Savannah and my goodness, was the Eastman a step up. So, I agree with the above that if you want it, and can afford it, and it makes you happy ... go for it.

Don't play head games with yourself over your worthiness to own a nice instrument. In fact I would argue that your musical progress would best be made investing in an instrument slightly beyond your means. You will have made a commitment to yourself to improve. Because of this you will find the time to play more. Furthermore, you will want to open the case to look at it's incredible beauty. If you open the case you will pick it up to look at the back. If you pick it up, you will play it. If you play it, you will get better.

So I say to beginners and neophytes alike, buy a $4000 mandolin to start with if you can. Or a $1500 used A. Don't shortchange yourself. Starbucks can do without your $5 a day.

Not worthy? Balderdash. Choosing to toil over a musical instrument in lieu of watching TV automatically makes you worthy.

I can't tell you how much I'd like to stamp out that notion. I can't imagine how many more folks would be playing today if they had started out on a good instrument, be it a flute, accordian, banjo, or mandolin. Playing at any level should be a joyful experience unencumbered by self doubt or derision.

OK, maybe not banjo. Banjo is for self loathing masochists.

[Rdeane]

I agree. Although I hadn't planned to even consider an upgrade for a year or more, I found myself with funds to purchase an significant upgrade to my Kentucky. I started my search after I (rationally) decided I probably wouldn't have that windfall when I was actually ready for a better mandolin. I know I will eventually get more skilled and do a bit of justice to a better instrument, but it will take some time. So while I'm improving my skills I am playing a great mandolin. And I found a delicious pre-owned MT2 with some lovely custom features. I'm already feeling as if my skill level has been elevated by this wonderful instrument.

[JeffD]

Where to go from here? Is there a place between $300 and $2000 where I could hear much difference in how well I play or how I sound? Are higher-end instruments easier to play?!

I think you will find that, in general, higher end mandolins sound better and play easier and stay good longer with normal care.

There are tons of exceptions and many people who pride themselves on how much wonderfulness they can tweak out of an economy mandolin. My experience is a nice mandolin requires no more tweaking. Pick it up, tune it up, and play. This is a real disadvantage if your hobby is tweaking, but mine is playing so it works for me.

I don't believe in levels, after the first mandolin. My opinion is that your second mandolin should be the very best you can afford. Go to the wall. It should be a mandolin which will forever dispel the notion that the mandolin is limiting you, or that there is anything limiting you but you. My second mandolin is right now more mandolin than I will ever "need" and I have not yet fully exhausted it's potential, or even come close.

You may someday get a third mandolin, (yea right, like you won't) but that purchase will be based on a specific tone or style or feeling you want to achieve, or indeed because it is very pretty and you gotta have it. Point is your third purchase, if you follow this plan, will not because you need something better, or that you wonder if you can do better on it.

[Br1ck]

Boy do I endorse this approach. First mandolin was an MD 505. It was plenty good enough to get me hooked. My second was my Silverangel. Everything said above I found true. Third was a whim Michael Kelly I got just to work on. It needed it. Now a great beater.

I wanted a scroll of decent quality. Didn't want to pay. Built my Arches kit

Needed something to occupy the time waiting for the Arches shellac to dry, so just filled in my collection void with a 1913 Gibson A-1.

Everything after the Silverangel was pure self indulgence.

[pops1]

I have always said " you can't learn to drive at Indy with a Volkswagen". I am old so you know, the old bug VW. Not necessarily appropriate here, but kind of what folks are saying about a nice mandolin. As I said in a previous post the more you like the sound of your mandolin, the more you play. The more you play, the better you get. We all like spending someone else's money here, remember that.

[fatt-dad]

(we lost Cindy.)

f-d

[Sevelos]

Well... for me it was totally different.
I bought a cheap Romanian mandolin (solid woods though), and played it for about 25 years - going to festivals, performing, etc. It cost at the time less than $100.
Then about 5 years ago, I found out about mandolin-cafe and started reading it passionately. I was reading almost everything for several months, 3-4 hours every day.
I found out about the famous (and expensive) American mandolins (Gibson, Collings, Ellis, Weber, etc.) I read comparison Threads and discussions about them and could only imagine how amazing they are. Here in Israel, nobody sells quality mandolins, so I could only dream about them and wait for an opportunity to try them out some day, abroad.
The day came and I found an amazing shop in... Tokyo! It had lots of Gibsons, Webers, etc. I posted some photos in the Cafe at the time.
And I tried some of them - Gibson F9, Weber Blue-something (don't remember precisely, but it was extremely expensive) and several other famous-name mandolins.
And you know what? I was not very impressed. I still liked my Romanian "cheapo" better
I still play it today.

[Charlie Bernstein]

. . . Is there a place between $300 and $2000 where I could hear much difference in how well I play or how I sound? Are higher-end instruments easier to play?!

I certainly think so. And there are great sounding, great playing instruments for under $2k.

Some imports are made very well. But there are so many great-sounding North American instruments available these days, both vintage and new, that it's a shame not to get in on it.

Start reading the classifieds here to find out what's out there and what's worth what. Pretty soon, you'll begin to get an idea of what prices are like and what makes are respected. I've bought two from the Mando Cafe classifieds, both good deals.

The trick is to (a) decide what you want, (b) become familiar with what they're going for, and (c) WAIT until you see what you want at a good price. I like well-made, solid wood, American-made no-frills instruments. I probably paid a little too much for a flattop Mid-Missouri, but I love it, and I got a bargain basement price on a Red Line A-5.

Since you already have something to play, the waiting part shouldn't be hard. Happy hunting!

[CES]

(we lost Cindy.)

f-d

Hope she’s either playing the snot out of her 150 or hanging out in TME every day