Tips on Fixing This Broken Headstock?

[Mando&Me]

This is a nasty one, and I appreciate any tips you can pass along.

This is a wonderful J. Bouvier mando (company now out of business, I understand) with a nasty crack in the upper neck. It was my fault that it broke, having left it on a precarious spot that caused it to drop on a hard tile floor. Dang. I had it fixed once and that repair finally gave away after about a year.



I took it to a very good luthier yesterday, and he told me the instrument was a goner.

However, I have nothing to lose by trying to fix it myself. I want to try. I would really appreciate any tips or referrals/links posted in this thread to particular books, website, YT vids, etc. I'm particularly interested in what would be the absolute best/strongest glue to use, and whether that glue would need any additives inside it, etc.

I'm a novice luthier, but I'm determined, patient and focused.

Thanks in advance for any tips and info you can send my way. Really appreciate it.

M&M

[rcc56]

Do you know what kind of glue was used to repair this the first time? Or is there any way that you can find out?

That information will make a big difference in determining the repairability of the instrument, and how best to proceed.

If the instrument had not been previously repaired, I would use either hot hide glue [not for beginners] or Titebond Original [pretty friendly for beginners].

If the previous repair was done with CA glue [super glue], all bets are off. It seals the pores of the wood, making it unlikely that another glue will stick unless you can find a way to get the CA out of there, which is very difficult to do. Polyvinyl glues are also a problem.

For contaminated gluing surfaces, Resorcinal glue might hold where nothing else will, or a high grade of slow cure marine epoxy.

If all else fails, the mandolin can be re-necked, or possibly a new head grafted on, but we generally try to avoid that if at all possible.

If the joint will accept fresh glue, it might be a good idea to grind the surface flat after gluing and reinforce the joint by inlaying a 1/16" veneer that extends 2" past the break in both directions [similar to a "backstrap" on a banjo]. Some people install splines instead. I prefer the veneer or "backstrap" method.

[Br1ck]

I have seen Jerry Rosa fix worse. I'd send it to him. The first fix was very poor. Should not have come apart so soon. Now someone will have to deal with the mess. Look for some of Jerry Rosa's YouTube videos where he cuts out the bad spot and glues scarf joint new wood in, shapes it, and does a pretty good job of making it look good.

I've done some repairs myself, but I wouldn'd do that one.

[rcc56]

We don't like repairing peghead breaks when a previous attempt has failed. The joint has to be cleaned, and often ground flat and new wood grafted in. Tricky work. If this one came to me, I would definitely reinforce the repair.

[Mando&Me]

Thanks so much for both of your posts. I found Jerry Rosa's YT page along with his direct email address, so I will send him so photos with an inquiry.

In anyone has another luthier to recommend that specializes in mandolins, I'm open to the information. Please feel free to post a link and/or website, email, etc.

RCC56, thanks for your very specific info on the different kind of glues. I will take this under advisement, depending on whether I decide to go forward on this on my own, or outsource it. BTW, looking at the interior wood, it does NOT look shiny or coated, which is what I assume it would look like had superglue been used.

Thanks again to both of you.

M&M

[Jeff Mando]

I have had "luck" with JB Weld (epoxy) for lost causes. Pegheads that have already been "repaired" once or twice before. Before you throw it in the trash, try JB Weld. NFI. It is thicker than glue, so it is a little harder to work with, but if you plan ahead it can be done. As bad as it looks, I've seen much worse and actually there seems to be quite a bit of wood surface to work with, IMHO. Good luck!
'

[rcc56]

"If anyone has another luthier to recommend . . ."

A mandolin specialist is not needed, but a repair person who understands glues and high-stress joints is.

The repair person will have to have the instrument in hand to determine the best way to proceed. What part of the country are you in?

If you can contact the fellow who did the original repair and find out for sure exactly what he used, it will be extremely helpful.

If that is not possible, put a single drop of water into a convenient area of the break. Wait 5 to 10 minutes. If the wetted area turns yellowish, it is probably Titebond or a yellow polyvinyl. If it turns whiteish, it's probably a white polyvinyl. If the water doesn't sink in, it's probably CA or a low grade of epoxy. If it sinks in but the color doesn't change, or it turns brownish, and it is a bit sticky, it might be some sort of hide glue or fish glue.

I will add that Titebond Original is an aliphatic resin, which is a very good glue for lutherie. Elmer's wood glue, Titebond 2 and 3, and many other yellow glues are yellow polyvinyls, which are not good glues for lutherie.

[mirwa]

Get another luthier, that is not a hard repair.

Steam it clean, if any glue remains then it’s an epoxy, clean/glue/clamp, maybe it will need splines ora backing plate, maybe it might not

Steve

[colorado_al]

Ouch!
I also recommend epoxy for the repair.

PS- JBovier is still in business. Just moved from Kentucky to Florida.
http://jbovier.net/
https://mandolins.ecrater.com/

I e-mailed with the owner, Jeff, today. New inventory set to arrive sometime in the fall it seems

[AndyV]

I'm a little surprised that the very good luthier told you it's a goner. May "surprised" is the wrong word. Suspicious? Does "It's a goner." mean "I don't want to do this one."? Are they just taking a pass?

I'm interested to know what others think of this.

[Bill Romansky]

I’m with Jeff Mando. JB Weld is the olive oil of the fabrication and repair world

[Bernie Daniel]

I have seen Jerry Rosa fix worse. I'd send it to him. The first fix was very poor. Should not have come apart so soon. Now someone will have to deal with the mess. Look for some of Jerry Rosa's YouTube videos where he cuts out the bad spot and glues scarf joint new wood in, shapes it, and does a pretty good job of making it look good.

I've done some repairs myself, but I wouldn'd do that one.

Jerry Rosa is among the very best and he could fix it -- but he is up to his ears in work and does not take mail in work anymore. At least I am pretty sure that is correct? But since you have already contacted him maybe you'll get a pleasant surprise and he'll do it.

One other point is I am afraid that you are going to have continuous problems with that break. That mandolin has the truss rod cavity set way too low in the head stock -- IMO. As a result that part of the neck is very fragile because it is partly hollowed out. If you look on a Gibson F-5 mandolin for example the bottom of the truss rod pocket is ~5/8" above the nut.

[Mando&Me]

Folks, I was able to crop the photos, to get a closer look.

[MikeEdgerton]

As has been said the biggest problem with that repair is the previous attempt. I've done this repair on a banjo and a few guitars but I got to it first. I didn't have to remove a previous attempt.

This one was repaired years ago and is still being played. The repair can be done. Just find someone that can do it right.

[Mando&Me]

I have had "luck" with JB Weld (epoxy) for lost causes. Pegheads that have already been "repaired" once or twice before. Before you throw it in the trash, try JB Weld. NFI. It is thicker than glue, so it is a little harder to work with, but if you plan ahead it can be done. As bad as it looks, I've seen much worse and actually there seems to be quite a bit of wood surface to work with, IMHO. Good luck!
'

Jeff, thanks. I'm more and more inclined to try to do this myself.

That glue sounds like a good one to look at.

Jeff, what does "NFI" mean? Sorry for my ignorance.


Thank You,
M&M

[MikeEdgerton]

No matter what glue you choose to use the preparation is everything and then you clamp. The clamp on the job above required a caul that I carved. Make sure you have it down with a dry run before you do the deed.

NFI stands for No Financial Interest.

[Mando&Me]

Ouch!
I also recommend epoxy for the repair.

PS- JBovier is still in business. Just moved from Kentucky to Florida.
http://jbovier.net/
https://mandolins.ecrater.com/

I e-mailed with the owner, Jeff, today. New inventory set to arrive sometime in the fall it seems

Great, thank you. Glad to hear it. I love this mando.

thanks again,

M & M

[Mando&Me]

I'm a little surprised that the very good luthier told you it's a goner. May "surprised" is the wrong word. Suspicious? Does "It's a goner." mean "I don't want to do this one."? Are they just taking a pass?

I'm interested to know what others think of this.

Andy, I don't want to mention the particular shop, but it's one with a national reputation. I was kinda surprised myself. This luthier took a good, long look at it. My sense was that he was concerned that his repair might not hold, and then I'd be back in there in three to six months. Again, this was not said directly, but this was the sense I got.

Thank You,

M & M

[Mando&Me]

No matter what glue you choose to use the preparation is everything and then you clamp. The clamp on the job above required a caul that I carved. Make sure you have it down with a dry run before you do the deed.

NFI stands for No Financial Interest.

Mike, thank you for taking the time to post your excellent advice and photos. If I do decide to attempt this myself, I'm good about being patient, methodical and structured in my approach.

thanks again.

[multidon]

JB weld is undeniably strong, but because of the steel filings in it, it cures that ugly dark grey color. Wouldn’t that show and be a very ugly repair?

In the hammered dulcimer world, it is common to use West System marine epoxy. Hammered dulcimers are probably under more string tension than anything out there other than a piano. The glue has to be very strong. West System is supposed to be the strongest out there. Problem is, I think the smallest quantity you can get is a pint. A boat builder or a marina that repairs boats might be able to sell you a smaller quantity from their stock.

[David Houchens]

Might be just the picture angle. but I never understood why someone would put a truss rod/nut of that diameter in a mandolin. Looks like the first repair person didn't take much care to keep the glue off of it either. This is definitely fixable.

[rcc56]

I agree with Don. A high grade marine epoxy would be a good choice.

[rowka]

It depends on what actually broke.
Are the surfaces clean exposed wood? Is so, I would not recommend epoxy, but good old Tite-bond.
If the break was on the old repair, what failed? Did the old adhesive separate from the wood surface? Did the adhesive itself cleave? If there is old adhesive visible on the surfaces that need to be joined, asses how well that adhesive is bonded to the underlying wood.

I have high confidence that this is fixable. I have no confidence on being able to diagnose how to make the repair over the inter webs.

[Bernie Daniel]

M&M -- here are some pics of a similar repair that I made -- so far successfully. PM me and we can exchange phone numbers and I can tell you about a few things you will encounter.

FYI: i did this repair three times twice with hard fish glue they each lasted about 6 months and finally with good old red label tite bond and it has lasted 2 years -- so far.

Note the position of the break -- at the truss rod pocket -- very weak there and it is too close to the nut and a bad design -- note this is not a Gibson error because this is not a real Gibson mandolin but a copy of an F-5 that I bought years ago -- long before there was a Mandolin Cafe. I frown on this today and if this breaks again I'll replace the neck and it will not say "Gibson" anymore -- pious aren't I? LOL

One other thing I agree JB Weld is really strong but also with the point made that it would be a very ugly repair when you are done. The suggestion of a clear marine epoxy might be best?

[Mando&Me]

JB weld is undeniably strong, but because of the steel filings in it, it cures that ugly dark grey color. Wouldn’t that show and be a very ugly repair?

In the hammered dulcimer world, it is common to use West System marine epoxy. Hammered dulcimers are probably under more string tension than anything out there other than a piano. The glue has to be very strong. West System is supposed to be the strongest out there. Problem is, I think the smallest quantity you can get is a pint. A boat builder or a marina that repairs boats might be able to sell you a smaller quantity from their stock.

Don, thank you. I'm much more interested in the very strongest bond so this doesn't happen again. Cosmetics don't matter much to me in this case. I typically don't play mando onstage, only guitar, so this is for mainly jamming with friends.

To reiterate: If gray epoxy will give me the strongest bond, that's the way I wanna go.

Marine epoxy makes sense to me, as I imagine it has some flex to it vs just being rigid and hard and prone to separation.

Thanks again,
M & M