Tips on Fixing This Broken Headstock?

[j. condino]

Even crazier when you consider it is an original 1959 Les Paul jr...!

[Bernie Daniel]

Even crazier when you consider it is an original 1959 Les Paul jr...!

Good grief!

[multidon]

Actually, the engineering behind the Les Paul Jr. fix seems sound.

[Jeff Mando]

The other one looks like they cut the repair straps from spoons!

Actually, nothing wrong with mechanical repairs -- other than they look bad and might get in the way of your playing!

[Paul Kotapish]

I think Frank Ford's frets.com site was mentioned above, but he has really well-documented, illustrated examples of a half-dozen different peghead repairs on this luthiers page.

http://frets.com/FretsPages/pagelist.html#Luthier

He generally recommends traditional hot-hide (not cold, not fish) glue for these repairs, but there are examples where he'll use other varieties.

This example of his re-repair of a previously glued peghead crack seems pretty similar to your situation:

http://frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier/...strapheat.html

Worth reading his articles comparing glue characteristics and strength tests and on using de-ionized water for cleaning repair sites, too, before doing anything.

[Bernie Daniel]

Yes, thanks, that's my plan -- to go with the strongest epoxy I can get my hands on. Although many have recommended the addition of a back strap, this is above my current expertise and I may just go with the epoxy and take my chances.

thanks, al,
M&M

Just wondering how this repair is coming along? Did you discover a good marine epoxy to use and have you started the repair?

[Mando&Me]

Bernie, wow, thanks so much for taking the time to follow up. I'm just too jammed in my schedule right now, so have tabled it till probably after the first of the year. In the meantime, I'm likely going to pick up a used entry-level Eastman (if anyone has an MD-304/305 or MD-315 lying around, I may have some interest).

Bernie, I did find what I consider a high-quality marine Epoxy (name escapes me at the moment) that also sells in small quantities.

Thanks again. I'm not daunted by the repair, just slammed with work and family obligations (oldest daughter getting married in December). Will keep folks in the loop.

Thanks So Much,
Mando&Me

[Bernie Daniel]

Bernie, wow, thanks so much for taking the time to follow up. I'm just too jammed in my schedule right now, so have tabled it till probably after the first of the year. In the meantime, I'm likely going to pick up a used entry-level Eastman (if anyone has an MD-304/305 or MD-315 lying around, I may have some interest).

Bernie, I did find what I consider a high-quality marine Epoxy (name escapes me at the moment) that also sells in small quantities.

Thanks again. I'm not daunted by the repair, just slammed with work and family obligations (oldest daughter getting married in December). Will keep folks in the loop.

Thanks So Much,
Mando&Me

Check out this thread and you'll know why I am interested in that epoxy. I think you'll be able to do the repair OK when you get to it!

[Timbofood]

West system epoxy from the Gougon brothers is amazing stuff! Not cheap but, WooEee, it’s durable!

[Mando&Me]

Hi, Everyone. As the OP, I wanted to bump this post to ask a specific question.

I have determined from the previous repair that the luthier used Titebond. I've been told that I need to remove the old glue remnant before attempting another repair. I believe several folks told me Titebond is water soluble. If this is the case, what might be the best method to going in there and removing it. I was thinking a paint brush that I could dip in water, which would allow me to get into all the crevices.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Thanks very much,

M&M

[HoGo]

Hi, Everyone. As the OP, I wanted to bump this post to ask a specific question.

I have determined from the previous repair that the luthier used Titebond. I've been told that I need to remove the old glue remnant before attempting another repair. I believe several folks told me Titebond is water soluble. If this is the case, what might be the best method to going in there and removing it. I was thinking a paint brush that I could dip in water, which would allow me to get into all the crevices.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Thanks very much,

M&M

Water will just slightly soften the glue. Vinegar is better or there is substance called de-glue-goo that will do it as well.

[pops1]

I would also use a stiffer brush like an old toothbrush.

[Mando&Me]

HoGo & pops1, thanks.

So just to confirm: TiteBond is classified as a water-based glue, correct? Just want to make sure.

thanks again,
Mando & Me

[mirwa]

Best way to clean is with a steamer, use coffee machine or similiar.

I posted this couple of months ago, may have missed it. A link of three types of headstock breaks step by step

http://www.mirwa.com.au/HTS_Headstock_Reglue.html


Steve

[Jeff Mando]

Nice tips and website, Steve!

[Mando&Me]

Best way to clean is with a steamer, use coffee machine or similiar.

I posted this couple of months ago, may have missed it. A link of three types of headstock breaks step by step

http://www.mirwa.com.au/HTS_Headstock_Reglue.html


Steve

Wow, Steve, thanks so much for reposting this. I must have missed it last time. I have saved it in my Bookmarks and will definitely reference it when I set about to repair the next (sometime in January).

Thanks also for the tip on the steaming. I'm thinking a hot electric iron would do the trick as well.

Thanks Again!
Mando & Me

[Timbofood]

Why not simply use a tea kettle?

[Mando&Me]

Hi, Everyone. Wanted to bump and renew this thread, as I'm getting closer to doing the repair.

To review: I spoke to the luthier who did the previous repair, and he said it was done with Titebond. My understanding is that this is a water-based glue, and thus I must first remove the old glue. Several of the last posts suggested steaming would be a good technique. Do most of you agree?

If so, the last poster recommended a standard old tea kettle. Anyone have any other ideas for steaming away this glue?

Thanks So Much,
M&M

[pops1]

Whatever your choice for a steamer, remember to use distilled water.

[Bernie Daniel]

You want to clean off the old titebond right?

Here is what I did. Get an open pan maybe 1 quart sauce pan or a 4 cup pyrex measuring cup. Add two cups of water (distilled if you have it) then heat to boiling or near boiling. Turn off the heat. Then, with a small long handled (6 - 8 inches), stiff bristled bush carefully (gently) wash/brush off all the parts. Keep brushing until the wood looks clean. Let it dry. If traces of glue remain repeat the process with fresh water. Worked great for me.

[Mando&Me]

You want to clean off the old titebond right?

Here is what I did. Get an open pan maybe 1 quart sauce pan or a 4 cup pyrex measuring cup. Add two cups of water (distilled if you have it) then heat to boiling or near boiling. Turn off the heat. Then, with a small long handled (6 - 8 inches), stiff bristled bush carefully (gently) wash/brush off all the parts. Keep brushing until the wood looks clean. Let it dry. If traces of glue remain repeat the process with fresh water. Worked great for me.

Bernie, thanks so much. If you wouldn't be offended, I think I'll start a new thread just on this one issue of removing Titebond and get some other opinions. I feel like I only have one good shot at this repair and really love this instrument, so I wanna nail it the first time. FYI, I recently picked up a used Eastman which is very nice, but it truly is not in the same league as the J. Bouvier. Worlds apart.

BTW, would it be advisable, once I know for sure all the old glue is gone, to GENTLY sand the surfaces on the inside of the neck with maybe 200 grit sandpaper to create a better bond for the adhesive? I'm going to be using Marine Epoxy and thought this approach might get even a better gripping surface.

Thanks So Much!
M&M

[Bernie Daniel]

Bernie, thanks so much. If you wouldn't be offended, I think I'll start a new thread just on this one issue of removing Titebond and get some other opinions. I feel like I only have one good shot at this repair and really love this instrument, so I wanna nail it the first time. FYI, I recently picked up a used Eastman which is very nice, but it truly is not in the same league as the J. Bouvier. Worlds apart.

BTW, would it be advisable, once I know for sure all the old glue is gone, to GENTLY sand the surfaces on the inside of the neck with maybe 200 grit sandpaper to create a better bond for the adhesive? I'm going to be using Marine Epoxy and thought this approach might get even a better gripping surface.

Thanks So Much!
M&M

On the roughing the surface (or just removing oxidation). It seems there is no proof that such action actually improves epoxy adhesion to wood surfaces? If there is I stand corrected.

I quizzed the technical support guys at Jamestown Distributors (sellers of Thixo Total Boat marine epoxy) several times and both times I asked about scuffing up the surface first and neither thought that was necessary or even useful? Personally I think it might be a good idea to do? But I have no data to share on the topic either.

[mirwa]

BTW, would it be advisable, once I know for sure all the old glue is gone, to GENTLY sand the surfaces on the inside of the neck with maybe 200 grit sandpaper

No and I would use just Titebond original

Steve

[Mando&Me]

Bernie, thanks for your research and responsiveness, and also the tip on the marine epoxy.

Mirwa, thanks as well for your comments. I don't know if you had time to read the whole thread, but the original repair was done by one of the best luthiers I could find with Titebond, and it did not last a year. After taking a kind of informal poll in this thread, I've decided to go the route of marine epoxy. I'm not really sophisticated enough to do a backstrap or anything like that, so this will have to be a kind of last shot, repair-of-all-repairs job. I want to intentionally overdo it, or I will have to scrap the mando. Thanks, though.

Mando & Me

[rcc56]

I've been following these threads with great interest, even though it has been a long time since anyone has brought an instrument with a broken head to my shop.

I've had pretty good luck with these repairs, but it's always a crap shoot. I've seen sloppy amateur jobs hold for the long term, and careful professional jobs give way after only a year or so. Who knows why??? I've pinned a couple with good long term results, while others have cautioned against that technique. I don't know if I will pin another one or not, though.

My current feelings, for whatever it is worth, is to take as much of the stress off the break as possible. That's why I have become a proponent of overlays or sandwiches. I do not believe that glue is really "stronger than the wood itself." I prefer to depend on the strength of new wood and glue joints that are spread out over a large area. But that's more work, and may not be practical on an inexpensive instrument.

Breaks in mandolin heads are a particular problem, because the gluing surfaces are small and the tension of 8 strings is therefore concentrated over a smaller area, especially when a truss rod and cavity are thrown into the mix.

Anyway, I wish you luck. Strength should be your primary aim. Cosmetics come second. A shot or two of dark lacquer can hide a lot of things if the surfaces have been well smoothed.