Mandolin marked with "Italia"

[josmulcahy]

First, I know nothing about mandolins, so please don't mock me. I bought one at an estate sale and am trying to find out whether it is worth getting the hairline cracks fixed. I planned to give it as a gift but don't want to if it isn't playable. It has no other markings.

[EdHanrahan]

Hey, ya gotta give us something to go on other than hairline cracks (common) and possibly Italian (not uncommon for older instruments). If I said I knew nothing about cars and simply asked if an Italian car was worth fixing, would that be mocking? Anyway...

We don't know any general characteristics, like maybe a bowlback? Photos always help: the usual front & back, any markings outside & inside including a label, headstock front and back including tuning gears, and a side view that shows how high the strings are above the body AND if there is excessive curvature of the neck. That starts to give a chance of identifying it.

[josmulcahy]

Thank you for responding. I tried to upload pictures, but it didn't work, so hopefully these pictures will upload. There are no other markings anywhere that I can find except for the "Italia" on the front.

[allenhopkins]

Thanx for the pictures. I'm no expert, and there are quite a few bowl-back experts with more knowledge and experience, but the first thought I had is that the lyre-shaped headstock does resemble the one on this Cesare Arosio mandolin. Some of the inlays seem similar as well.

Now let's wait for the real bowl-back connoisseurs to jump in.

As to whether it's worth fixing, I'd at least get an estimate. Older bowl-backs are generally not bringing much on the market, unless they're built by a handful of more prestigious makers. Hairline cracks, if they don't require cleating, can be fixed relatively inexpensively. You will, however, also want to get a different bridge.

[brunello97]

My hunch is that this is a Catanese built mandolin and likely stamped or labeled for sale by others (Cesare) or simply branded "Italia" for export.

This appears to be a very MOR quality instrument, but that might still mean it could be a very sweet sounding instrument. Nice enough details and wood. The fret spacing on some of these MOR bowls can be pretty dicey though, making consistent intonation a rugged task at best.

The key to its potential playability is the neck angle condition, which from the side view appears pretty grim. The thin tops of these mandolins often give way over time and sink in just a tiny bit between the soundhole and the neck joint.

This is often enough for the neck to rotate up out of position while seemingly be intact where the neck joins the bowl. But it can result in the string height / action becoming virtually unplayable.

Take a straightedge and lay it on the nut at one end and the bridge at the other. Post a photo from as dead on a side view as you can get. That should enable folks to venture an opinion about whether this is possibly playable or not.

The way the necks were built in integrally with the bowl staves on these Italian mandolins make them very difficult to repair.

I've had any number of these cheaper Italian bowls. Some can sound pretty okay. Some are a mess.

I hope yours is the former, but the neck looks muy sketchioso to me.

Mick

[Jim Garber]

Mick has some good advice. From that last sideways view though it looks like that "bridge" —more like a small slab of wood—is way low so I would guess that it needs a neck reset to actually make it playable. It also looks like it need a new nut and probably set up.

[EdHanrahan]

First, I know nothing about mandolins ...

... and at some point, none of us did. So let me expand on the above just as points of education, recognizing that I'm still far from expert.

- brunello notes it as a "middle of the road" instrument even though the inlays tend to be on the elaborate side, but inlay has has little impact on sound. The number of "barrel staves" in the bowl, on the other hand, seems to be about 21 (usually an odd number), putting it, yep, toward the middle. A student/beginner model may have as low as 7, top of the line sometimes 35 or so.

- Unlike more modern instruments, the neck is not "added onto" the body of a bowl-back, where the neck is glued into a "neck block" that's a permanent part of the body. Instead, that neck block in an integral part of the neck itself, and the body is added onto the neck. Unfortunately, any attempt to re-set the neck (a common repair on some guitars) means that the body may fall apart. The effort & cost of re-building would be far above the value of most bowlbacks.

- Attempts to straighten a non-reinforced, non-trussrod neck tend to be temporary. Most bowl-backs actually have a pre-trussrod neck. While some slight bend in the neck is beneficial (it's called "relief", allowing the strings to vibrate in an arc, like a jumprope), your side-neck photo does show a bit more than normal on mandolins.

- The bridge is the most obvious offender, being a glued-on square-ish stick. For instruments with tailpieces, meaning most mandolins, the bridge is normally far more delicate AND is held on by string pressure only (so they get lost!). Look at any of the linked pictures and the difference will be obvious. Getting a new bridge is not difficult; getting the current one off w/out damaging the top might require some delicate shaving.

FWIW, bowlback bridges generally don't have the zig-zag pattern of string compensation (differing string lengths) that's common on more modern instruments, nor do they have thumb-wheel height adjustment.

- The tuners seem to be a corroded mess, but that could just be dirt and a dark photo. Here's the bible on tuners:
http://www.lutherie.net/tuner.maintenance.html

- Ditto the nut (top end of strings, near the tuners) as Jim commented above. But maybe just some cleaning?

- "Italia". Markings intentionally branded, or written, on the face of an instrument are not very common. Most of us expected it to be on a remaining shred of internal paper label. That would be common.

And, oh yeah: "Catanese". brunello refers to the city of Catania, on the east coast of Sicily. Visited there 3 years ago and, after several local encounters, the worst possible thing happened: my instrument GAS (gear acquisition syndrome) got replaced by Ferrari GAS... Yikes!

Anyway, hope this diatribe helps!

[brunello97]

my instrument GAS (gear acquisition syndrome) got replaced by Ferrari GAS... Yikes!

Bowlback geek that I am, I first assumed that you had acquired GAS for a Ferrari mandolin (labeled Napoli, but I have long suspected Catania). But then I figured you were likely talking about the sportscar....

Mick

[EdHanrahan]

... figured you were likely talking about the sportscar ...

[vic-victor]

I've seen an exactly the same design of a scratchplate on a Puglisi mandolin (but they were usually available pre-made and can't be used to identify the maker). The headstock shape is not of Puglisi though, most of their models had ""moustache" top style (like Gibson Les Paul Guitars). The headstock shape of the actual mandolin discussed was used by several makers, the best known one is Silvestri (though again it can't be used to 100% identify the instrument).

[josmulcahy]

Well, I'm more confused than when I started. So, I'm thinking that I'll hang this instrument on the wall! Thanks to everyone for your input - it is much appreciated!

[vic-victor]

It can be made playable, actually. Try Dave Hynds www.mandolinluthier.com , he is a real bowlback enthusiast and does not charge a fortune for his work.

[NickR]

You tend to find the maker's name impressed on the top. If the instrument was going to be sold by a third party- such as a British dealer, then the maker did not impress the top but might have their label inside. Some dealers such as J E Dallas of London had their own brand names which were on the labels and the word "FOREIGN" on it- especially when it was legally mandated by the British Government as in the 1930s. It could be that the name ITALIA was a brand- possibly used by the importer. I have a mandolin that was sold by A Morzino & Garlandino- a well know firm in Milan. However, the instrument was almost certainly made by Meinel & Herold in Saxony while its case is a wooden British case- so it was finally retailed in England.=-quite a journey. So, I don't think Italia is just a stamp to let the world know it was made in Italy/Sicily. There's an interesting J E Dallas mandolin- made by the firm on ebay- I will post it up.

[brunello97]

You tend to find the maker's name impressed on the top. If the instrument was going to be sold by a third party- such as a British dealer, then the maker did not impress the top but might have their label inside. Some dealers such as J E Dallas of London had their own brand names which were on the labels and the word "FOREIGN" on it- especially when it was legally mandated by the British Government as in the 1930s. It could be that the name ITALIA was a brand- possibly used by the importer. I have a mandolin that was sold by A Morzino & Garlandino- a well know firm in Milan. However, the instrument was almost certainly made by Meinel & Herold in Saxony while its case is a wooden British case- so it was finally retailed in England.=-quite a journey. So, I don't think Italia is just a stamp to let the world know it was made in Italy/Sicily. There's an interesting J E Dallas mandolin- made by the firm on ebay- I will post it up.

I don't know how much I really agree with you, Nick. Lots, I mean lots, of Italian mandolins had dealer's names impressed on them.
Are we really to believe that "Luigi d'Amore" was really a builder of Italian mandolins?

Someone may have appropriated the "Italia" name as a brand, but I find it highly unlikely. So many mandolins were exported from Italy to the UK under so many names and labels that I find it improbable to present any simplified truisms such as you suggest.

I currently have 500+ "makers" of Italian bowlback mandolins in my files. Some of our friends here may have even more. How many of those actually made their mandolins seems smaller every day. In all those files, I haven't found any any definitive relationship between who made and who stamped or who made and who labeled. It was all far too slippery.

Monzino is another interesting case. Big Milanese music concern. Big name in mandolins in Northern Italy, probably the biggest in the mandolin heyday. They offered so many mandolins of so many different styles, it seems clear they brought them in from all over, Germany, perhaps included. But to make a leap from Monzino to some Joe Blow exclusively importing "Italia" mandolins seem specious to me. A difference of both scale and kind.

Like buying "Hecho in Mexico" huaraches in NYC: Caveat emptor.

Mick

[tonydxn]

Not a very intelligent comment, but that head shape always reminds me of Mickey Mouse

[NickR]

Mick

You may be right, overall. I was writing from a British perspective. I have an Ermelinda Silvestri Hawaiian guitar- it has a British dealer label and the top is not impressed. However, the name Silvestri is impressed on many of that company's instruments. This lends me to believe, that the big dealers- Dallas, as I mentioned that had their own brand names, did not want a maker's name. Dallas had many names and often a badge with that brand was tacked on to the headstock, or in the case of the more expensive Martin Coletti guitars, inlaid in the headstock by the maker in Schonbach. Likewise, after WW2, German guitars that might have a decal on the body, did not have this- they had a dealer decal or badge. I think the most obvious example of this, is Beare & Son of London ( and Toronto) that had the badge "The Michigan" tacked on to the headstock. Mine, is a 1934 date-stamped Harmony Valencia. After WW2 when imports from the USA were embargoed as there was a shortage of dollars, the brand dropped "Made in USA" off the badge and sourced from central Europe. Of course, the name Michigan should have been changed to Markneukirchen but that would have meant a much bigger badge!

[brunello97]

Thanks, Nick. It is getting more interesting here as folks begin to link together the international flow of makers, labels, etc.

Funny that you mention "The Michigan". I have family in Michoacan, so when we moved up to Ann Arbor from Texas I though it was a tremendously funny thing. No one up here seems to get the joke. But now I have mandolins from Kalamazoo, Mexico and Toronto, all with "Mich" on their labeling / badging. I realize that I'm easily pleased....

If I am getting it right, are you suggesting "The Michigan" banjo-mandolin I assumed was from Canada might actually have been made in Germany? MarkneukIrCHen?

I guess the strange practice of having instruments labeled "The Old Tennessee" or "Pettimore Moonshiner" coming out of China is part of a long tradition.

Mick

[NickR]

Mick

Beare & Son was a big Gibson dealer but sold a wide variety of instruments. The firm still exists in the UK and is more than 150 years old- still trading with the "cat & fiddle" trademark. I would not be surprised if London was buying from Germany that some of the order was also for Canada, as well. When the £ rode high, imports from central Europe were relatively cheap and that is where the manufacturing was based most intensively- like with Chicago. My Martin Coletti Lyric G80 is basically a Nick Lucas knock off. It retailed for 18 guineas in 1935. Posh things were sold in guineas until we decimalized in 1971. 18 guineas was £18-18 shillings- a guinea being 21 shillings. That could have been about $80 in 1935- quite a price. A seriously good instrument and mine was once the property of Martin Simpson- top fingerpicker- it gets played like a mandolin now- with a straight pick!