gibson F9 vs kentucky

[jfrebel]

in a few months I'm thinking of getting me a gibson F9. but I wondered.

on paper the Kentucky master models seem to be superior. at least based on my limited knowledge. think adirondack top vs regular spruce for example.

the chinese workers are also apparently well trained so one would think are as good as american workers except they get paid far less thus resulting in a cheaper price for the mandolin. but maybe not. or maybe gibson still does things exclusive to it that make its tone better?

I wouldn't know. This is where I suspect some will suggest I simply try a bunch of mandolins from various models. not gonna happen. I'm too far from the only two shops in the entire country that apparently carry a good selection of mandolins outside cheap toys at guitar center.

I do have a km-950 which I like but when I can afford it, I want a nice traditional mandolin with a scroll. I have a km-752 as well with a scroll and the odd thing is I like its more played in, open airy ringy sound with more sustain but wish it had more depth like the 950, not thin sounding, but I like the 950's depth and dark tone but wish it sounded less tight and more open and ringy like the 752, but keeping its richer tone. I had a gibson F5G for a bit which I did like but had to sell to cover medical bills. but to be honest I didn't find that particular one night and day better than my kentucky. maybe a bit better on the G string but then the high notes didn't sound as good as even the km-150 I have.

so I don't know. the ideal would be to go and try a bunch. since that's simply not an option, I'll likely just order a nice mandolin in a few months from the mandolin store.

the mandolins I'll likely consider will th the gibson F9, a northfield Big Mon, Eastman 815, or a kentucky km-1500.

any input is welcome. and certainly on the question of if gibson is better and if so why? I know first hand names and price mean little. I once tried a weber gallatin and it sounded like a toy to me. like it was stuffed with socks. even my km-150 sounded better to me. (and that wasn't a typo)

[Br1ck]

Here is my experience when I was lucky enough to visit The Mandolin Store. I told them I wanted to work my way up the Kentucky line and above. I really was interested in the master series Kentuckys. None of the Kentucky mandolins appealed to me until the 900 series witch was a big sonic quality jump from the non master series. I was thinking these I could live with, scroll or no scroll, very nice mandolins. Then they put a Northfield F 5S in my hands, a nice bump up, but not drastic.

I came to the conclusion I'd wish I had a Northfield every time I played the Kentucky if I bought one, but the pocket book hit was significant. Then they put a used, 2004 I believe, F 9 in my hands. Yes a whole lot more, but my the Gibson tone. Bluegrass heaven. Then a new F 9 for a whole lot more than the used one. All I can say is where is a bank I can rob.

Since we were north of $4500, I played a Big Mon. Just a very different flavor of really good, as was the Collings MF. At that I called it quits for my own well being. But the new F 9 was a memorable mandolin. That is if you like it's signiture sound.

I could live with a Northfield F 5S and $1500 in my pocket. If I had the extra $1500 it would be hard to choose between the F9, Big Mon, or MF. The Big Mon is beautiful.

[Mark Miller]

Sigh. I have to stop reading threads like this. I like my mandolin fine while I’m playing it. Then I read this, or visit the classifieds, and MAS sets in. Why do I do this to myself?!?!

Anyway, I hope that if you have to order one, the one you get makes you happy.

[CES]

Unfortunately, I think it really depends on the individual mandolin. I will suggest looking for a used Skip Kelley F5 or a Silverangel F5. Mandomutt sells Skip’s mandolins on consignment with some frequency...nfi...

I know that by reputation Gibson is the gold standard, but I’m not a fan of their corporate treatment of dealers and individual customers through the years. The mandolin/custom division seems to be an exception. Their instruments have a premium price because, in part, of the name on the headstock, and I’ve only played a few of them that made me think that premium was worth it. There are MANY who will disagree with me, and I’ve had a couple of old grassers around here tell me, “Just buy a Gibson and be done with it!” But I’m very happy with my Kelley A5 and really liked my Silverangel Econo as well. Both were a step up from the Kentucky and Eastman models I’ve played, though I’ve not yet gotten my hands on a 1500.

Good luck in your search! Fortunately, there are a lot of good options!!

[Astro]

Since you already have a Kentucky 950, you already know what the Kentucky's are about. Their F master models will look prettier but likely have a similar tone(I've never played one of the master models). Similarly, the Gibson F9 supposedly sounds very similar to their higher end instruments. Of course I am talking generalities here. Within any brand and any level of brand there will be clunkers and hogs.

So I would say in general go with the Gibson for that tone flavor profile since you have the Kentucky already. I love my F5G and have compared it to a bunch of Gibson's higher end ferns and signature models costing nearly twice the money and its true--mine sounded as good or better on average. I've never played an F9 that I can recall but numerous folks on the forum say it has the same goods in tone.

I have played a few 950s and liked them all, especially for their price. I have also played a Weber Galatan (mahogony) and like you I thought it was a dead-toned clunker. It may have been the set up. They have a funky bridge that few guitar oriented shops (like the one we have here) understand.

If you buy used, you will save considerable and may even be able to get the F5G used for the price of less than or equal to a new F9. There are a bunch around. If you buy a used F9, make sure its one of the models from the last few years unless you don't mind the lack of fret markers on the earlier models.

[chasray]

I have a Kentucky KM900 (well,my son now has it) that I think is one of the best buys for the money. Really like it. But the best mandolin I have owned is a Gibson F9 made in 2013. The price of a new F9 has increased since then - but if price isn't the main issue, I don't think you'll be disappointed. I have smaller hands and like the flat fingerboard and "no florida" at the end.

I don't know about the older f9's.

Of course, try before you buy is always the way to go if you can.

[stinkoman20xx]

Since you have a 950 I and not 100% please I would pass on another Kentucky, as mentioned will probably be similar to your 950 which is an excellent mandolin in its own right. The Eastman 815 is also nice, but wouldn't really be any sort of upgrade and probably won't have the sound your looking for.

[mee]

F9 gets my vote But easy for me considering I've never played a Kentucky and my F9 is far better than any other mandolin that I have tried. Yet.

[Br1ck]

As a Silverangel owner, I'd be the first to agree there are other mandolins other than an F9 that you can buy cheaper that are fine instruments. Now I have never been to Nashville to play the variety there, and that variety comes with premium cost. Let's say we won't spend more than $5000. At that price, of mandolins readily available in the SF Bay Area, you would be shopping Northfield and Collings, talking F style. I've yet to see a new Gibson here. It would be between the F 9 ordered from TMS, or a Big Mon, or a Collings MF. If I were a blue grass player predominately, it would be the F9. Nothing else I've played has that chop.

I'm drawing from the small sample size of my own experience. Of the three above it would be a very hard decision, one that I would hope would not be driven by bling. Otherwise game over, Big Mon.

[dhergert]

If you really want to seriously compare your KM-950 with an F-9, it takes more than just going into a store that carries an F-9 and playing them side-by-side. They both have to be wearing the same strings, the same aged strings, and they both have to have approximately the same setup in order to really do a fair comparison. And for that you really need to own both instruments so you can make sure the strings and the setups are similar enough to fairly compare them.

I started out with my mandolin re-discovery in 2012 with a very nice second-hand 2002 F-9. A few years later I purchased a blowout-sale new MK Legacy Festival F. Since both mandolins were F-style with solid wood and carved tops, I set out to set up and string-up both mandolins as similarly as possible so I could use the MK as a backup for the F-9.

What I found after similar setups and similar strings is that both instruments sounded extremely similar. Having the same setup and strings does make a difference. Both the F-9 and the MK do have subtle tone characteristics of their own, but those differences are very subtle and both instruments sound extremely good in their own rights.

Even though my MK was vastly less expensive than my F-9, I did learn some things from it that I have applied to my F-9...

The MK has wider frets, while the F-9 came originally with traditional thin frets. I really prefer the feel of the wider frets and when my F-9 needed to be re-fretted, I had this change made (Gold-Evo "banjo width").

The MK neck has a C-profile, while the F-9 came originally with a V-profile neck which hurt my thumb every time I played. At the time I had my F-9's frets replaced I also had the neck gently re-profiled to a C-profile, then speed necked and French-polished.

Both of these changes have made my F-9 a much better playing instrument for me.

I admittedly am a long-time Gibson enthusiast, so my F-9 is my clear favorite of these two instruments. That said, from a tone and playability standpoint I wouldn't be embarrassed to play either instrument on stage. And I'm extremely happy to have the MK mandolin as a backup mandolin so that I can play it in situations where I don't want to play the F-9...

No matter which higher-end mandolin you get, this might be a good consideration for you with your KM-950.

[Br1ck]

dhergert, we've run parallel paths with our MKs. I've got mine playing about as well as it can, and a lot of it's tinnyness has gone away, but it couldn't compare with the F9s coming from Gibson now. Nonetheless, I've put many hours on it because I leave it out.

But now that I have completed my Arches kit, It'll be relegated to camping or, horrors, sold. But man, both the F 9 and MF are a lot of money for a stripped down mandolin, but they both exude quality in both sound and feel, and do have an elegance about them.

[dhergert]

... But man, both the F 9 and MF are a lot of money for a stripped down mandolin, but they both exude quality in both sound and feel, and do have an elegance about them.

Yup...

"... The F-9s have the same attention to detail as any of our other mandolins when it comes to tone and playability. We are able to offer them at a lower price for three reasons. The wood selection process (in reference to streaks, knots, curl, anything related to the visual and not to the tone) is less stringent and therefore less costly, and the fact that we don't have to scrape the binding (which is extremely labor intensive) and we don't have to buff the finish (again very labor intensive). We still spend the same amount of time in graduation, neck-fit, etc. as we do on our most expensive mandolin. ..."

Charlie Derrington Mandozine CGOW interview, March 9, 2003

[KGreene]

Just some food for thought … I love my F5G (but it ain't no Gilchrist) ... in many of this type of discussions/ponderings, it seems many are comparing a variety of pac-rim brands/styles against Gibsons. IMHO, this in itself speaks volumes. Here's my two cent story for comparison.... I've ridden motorcycles most of my life, when I got into cruisers many years ago, I couldn't bring myself to "spend that kind if money on a Harley", subsequently spending even more money trying to make a rice burner 'sound and/or look" like a Harley (one or two coming very close). At the end of the day, regardless of how good I thought it looked or sounded... It still wasn't a Harley and it was blatantly obvious with side-by-side comparisons (I now own ONLY Harleys).... I also, found this to be true (for me anyway) with mandolins... at the end of the day, it ain't a Gibson...

Probably a good thing there aren't too many Gils or Dudes in my area.

[William Smith]

Well Gibson's will have the resale value in the future superior to a Kentucky! Some Kentucky mandolins have varnish and were not made too long and I've heard are great but still a Gibson is well a Gibson, they'll be in more demand than a KM! But sound should be the real test but for resale go with Gibson, I've had them all and easier to sell a Gibson to upgrade while getting your $ back and maybe more! But then I'm a Gibson guy so I will be partial to them than an import. Just go by your ear!

[jfrebel]

lots of info so far. thanks for replying. one person mentioned gibsons having that bluegrass sound. but I'm not sure what that means.

does this mean they're louder? have more or less sustain? more ringly or more pingy, etc?

as for resale value as mentioned I should say when I go big, I'm hoping to find "The Mandolin" the one I'll want to play till I die, not sell.

thus I want the sound and looks (the scroll) I desire.

my ideal is one that rings like a bell and has lots of sustain, bright but full sounding, not tinny or thin. I want one that sounds open and played in, not tight. and one with a G string that sounds as good as the D and A strings, full and bell like and an E string that sounds good and full not thin.

if thats a gibson I'll gladly pay the huge price. if that turns out to be an eastman 315 then hell I'll gladly pay that and save thousands. LOL (something tells me not to hold my breath)

[dhergert]

... I had a gibson F5G for a bit which I did like but had to sell to cover medical bills. but to be honest I didn't find that particular one night and day better than my kentucky. maybe a bit better on the G string but then the high notes didn't sound as good as even the km-150 I have...

This passage in your original post scares me a bit... I'd categorize the typical sound of an F-9 as being very close or identical to an F-5G and at least very close to any of the other standard F-5 models except perhaps for the Master Model. So I'm a little worried that maybe you really aren't looking for what some consider to be the signature Gibson sound...

Have you considered a nice Webber? Ellis/Pava? Collings? Or a custom mandolin from another north American builder?

Keep in mind, comparing mandolins that use different brands of strings and/or ages of strings will not give you a fair sound comparison, and differing setup details can also make a huge difference.

[jfrebel]

I have tried a pava and a weber and hated both. I liked even my cheap kentucky km-150 more. I'd have even chosen the gibson I tried over them. I did like the one I had okay but not $4000 okay. LOL it sounded okay to me but not really any better than the kentucky. and I do like my kentucky's, they're not not the ideal tone I'm looking fore. the 950 sounds a bit tight and not quite bright enough, and the km752 does sound bright, open and ringy which I love but a bit thin and not as loud. and the G string doesn't ring like I'd like.

I have not tried a collings yet but plan too. there's a store down here in oklahoma city that carries them.

[Eric Hanson]

Jfrebel:
“I have not tried a collings yet but plan too. there's a store down here in oklahoma city that carries them.”
I have a Collings MT2V. I LOVED it from the first strum on. I would buy another one if I had the funds.
FWIW. There is one in the Classifieds that is JUST like mine. It even has Waverly tuners. So worth the extra.
If money was not short this one also be mine.
The great thing about an amazing instrument from a great company is that if you buy, play it, and end up not LOVING it you can resell it for what you paid.
Nothing lost.
Hope you find what is your end goal instrument. I know that I have done so and continue to love it greatly!

[almeriastrings]

on paper the Kentucky master models seem to be superior. at least based on my limited knowledge. think adirondack top vs regular spruce for example.

You really can't go by that.... there is so much more involved.

I am fairly familiar with the upper range of Kentucky mandolins, and have had several pass through over the years. They are very good instruments, probably the best one I played was a KM-1500. That sounded quite close to my Northfield. However...here's the kicker... none of them sounded like a Gibson F9 or F5. The voicing was different (neither does the Northfield, by the way - it has it's own sound). In 'bang for buck' terms, the KM's are brilliant. You get a lot of very nice mandolin for your money. However, in my opinion they a) Don't sound quite like a Gibson or b) Feel like a Gibson in your hands. While Gibson have put out some junk over the years (think 1970's) the more recent output has been very, very good indeed. I'd take a Kentucky over a 1970's Gibson F5 any day... but the Harvey era (especially) Gibsons are typically phenomenal. Don't just judge by paper specs, use your ears. Of all the mandolins I've owned or encountered over the years, if I was really hard pressed to choose three, it would be the Ellis, my Harvey era Fern, and a very fine Heiden 'Heritage' model. All different 'paper' specs but each an amazingly good mandolin. I'd definitely give an F9 a listen if you can.

[Jim Parriott]

Mandolins vary in tone, even from the same maker -- it's one of the cool things about string instruments in general. You obviously have a very specific sound you're looking for. That means you need to play many mandolins before you'll be happy. Spend some money on a trip to Nashville. Play many mandolins. Pick one that gives you joy. Done.

Except, my guess is, you won't be happy in a year and will repeat the process. Welcome to MAS.

[CES]

Agree about the MT2s being awesome mandolins! I’ve played a couple at Lowe Vintage that were phenomenal. Very different tone than the MT line, IMO.

I also played a used Pomeroy there that was a very good F5. Good bang/buck used...

[jfrebel]

I wonder if one could describe the gibson tone vs the kentucky, eastman, colling setc, but with clear language not fluffy words like woody and modern which seem to mean different things to different people. woody's real meaning is "it makes a sound I really like" LOL

we can use terms like fat and thin. think of the tone of a string played close to the bridge vs closer to the fretboard. thin is close to the bridge and the more you move away from there the fatter it gets. volume is an obvious one. open vs tight. open would be more like a bell, tight is more like a bell with socks in it. bright vs dark, think flute vs oboe, oboe being dark, flute bright. etc.

descriptions I can relate to without just meaningless fluff. it sounds modern with a touch of pizazz, etc. ?????? um okay. LOL

[Br1ck]

To me Gibson is all about the chop. Nothing I've played chops like a Gibson. Try a Collings.

[gtani7]

I guesstimate there's a least a couple dozen stores that stock a few lines like Pava, Collings, Northfield as well as vintage and would be worth a drive/train ride. If not, watch for jams, workshops/festivals near you and at least you can hear a bunch of mandolins up close. Asking to play a complete stranger's instrument is kind of tricky.

Elderly, Gruhn's/ Carter's /other places in Nashville, Fiddler Green, Grpyhon and Sylvan in Bay Area, Dusty strings in Seattle. Greg Boyd, Bradford/Franzke, Bernunzio in Rochester, Music Emporium in Boston area, Morgan Music (Missouri)

(from a banjo thread that has much longer list)

Webers can be good and woody, you have to try a few.

[Bill Kammerzell]

I have an F5G that I bought new. It was a floor model so I was able to get it discounted by about 33%. I've owned a top of the line Weber, and this F5G is still far and away the best sounding, best set up, out of the case mandolin I have owned. I just traded a Rigel A+ Deluxe, to a friend, even up for a 2013 Kentucky KM-1500. It should be here today, or tomorrow. I'm going to be very interested in this sound comparison myself. As far as I know, the KM-1500 is their top of the line Master Model, with the possible exception of the Bill Monroe Km-5000 of which I think they made 100? This one has had a recent set-up, so I'm looking forward to playing it. Still in the original case and is said to be in excellent condition. Like anything else, if I like it, I'll keep it. If not, I'll sell it, as I was doing with the Rigel when I made the trade. With the F5G keeping the Kentucky might be redundant.
Plus I have to believe selling a KM-1500 would be a lot easier than selling a Rigel anyway.