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Thread: Memorizing Chords and Progressions

  1. #26

    Default Re: Memorizing Chords and Progressions

    MandoMN, after almost 3.5 years of playing, I realized much the same as you, I knew melodies, but not the chords. I could guess the key of a fiddle tune, but I didn't know it. So I have gone back to square one, and I am memorizing the chords, starting with Old Joe Clark, Liberty, Bile Them Cabbage Down..

    The only tips I can give is to learn it like you learned the melody. Use backing or play along tracks, and think of the melody while you are playing the chords, and think of the chords as you are playing the melody. And for any new tunes, make sure you are learning both the chords and the melody.

    And knowing the basic I, IV, V is great, but what about songs that have the IV starting in the middle of a measure? Red Haired Boy. Or the afore mentioned Whiskey Before Breakfast. I V IV I IV I V I? You will start hearing the chord changes, and that will help you keep on track.

    Lastly, what is your reason for learning the chords? If it is simply to chop along in jams, well then you have half a beat to figure things out, especially if yoy have a guitar player in the jam. If your desire is to lay down a solid rhythm for others to play with, well, that is another ball game.
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  3. #27
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    Default Re: Memorizing Chords and Progressions

    As always, the key to memorization is understanding. Fiddle tunes are largely made up of arpeggios outlining chords and scale figures
    connecting chord notes. Listen! E.g., the first two bars of Briliancy outline the chords A and D: A,A,/D,A/, the next two bars are mainly scale figures over the bm and E7 chords, etc. In scale figures the chord notes are mainly on the down strokes (the beats in 4/4, the beats and "and"s in 2/2).

  4. #28

    Default Re: Memorizing Chords and Progressions

    As people have mentioned, a lot of folk tunes use the same patterns, and, as you use them, you will begin to recognize them.

    However, this is also a potential limitation. If you don’t work on tunes with unusual structures, you will not recognize those structures. So, after you get the basics down, seek out and learn more novel structures.
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  5. #29

    Default Re: Memorizing Chords and Progressions

    Quote Originally Posted by MandoMN18 View Post
    Hi!
    Any tips out there for memorizing the chords that fiddle tunes have and memorizing their progression? I can remember the melodies of fiddle tunes, but I struggle with the chords. I thought about creating a playlist of tunes to jam with since I don’t have a jam nearby. Is it just doing it enough so that it becomes memory or are there any other tips? Thanks!
    When you learn a fiddle tune, how many times do you play through the melody? 200? And how many times do you play through the chords? 10? There lies your answer

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  7. #30

    Default Re: Memorizing Chords and Progressions

    Brute force repetition is overrated.

  8. #31
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    Default Re: Memorizing Chords and Progressions

    If you have actually learned a tune, you should also be able to vocalize/hum/diddle it. Maybe you have put it into your muscle memory by endless repetition, but if you can't also vocalize it, then it's not in your head!

    Real playing is like "singing on your instrument". Vocalizing the tune while you play it is one of the most surefire ways to wire your ears and your hands together, so later on, when you think a lick or phrase, your fingers almost automatically play it. The hands should follow the ear.

    If John McGann were still with us, he'd probably be posting "I second that emotion!"

    Listen......if you can hum the tune, you can then practice playing your chords with the melody (which you are singing). Now you'll be connecting the melody with the chords (or one set of chords that work with it) in both your head and hands! This is actually better for your progress than backing up a friend (or tape) who is playing the tune.

    Do you really want to have to practice and rehearse (in your hands) every melody that has been in your head since high school? When you connect the ear and hand wiring, if you happen to think of "Pipeline" or "Goldfinger" or "It's Not Unusual" or "Iron Man" or "The Look Of Love", it'll come out of your fingers. (Maybe not at full speed the first time, but once you've "found it", increasing the tempo will naturally follow)

    All those arpeggios, and scales and patterns are just as much there to be practiced to put them into your ear/head as much as putting them into the hands.

    Yeah... I suppose this all sounds rather glib and simplistic or that the Mandocrucian is just a "crank". But it really does boil down to something this basic. I'm not saying that it will happen without effort. But it's advice distilled from 45+ years of playing.

    Niles H

    (FWIW....I went way beyond this, as I had a set of organ bass pedals (for the left foot), and a 6-piece acoustic drum kit of my own devising (played with the right foot) ...while I played various lead and accompaniment/rhythm grooves on mando in addition to singing the song. When you turn yourself into the entire rhythm section, you really begin to understand groove and interlocking parts. And you can actually feel your brain stretching after juggling them apples.)

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  10. #32

    Default Re: Memorizing Chords and Progressions

    Many outstanding instrumentalist have never sung a note they played. Obviously, horn players can’t sing while they play. Polyphonic music cannot be sung.

    This is one of those things that might be useful, but could be argued either way. I always default to practicing the thing you want to get good at. If you want to get good at playing the mandolin, play the mandolin. If you want to get good at singing, sing. If you want to get good at singing while you play the mandolin, sing while you play the mandolin.

    One way that singing might help is by adding a desirable difficulty to a task. You might also try to read the newspaper out loud while playing a tune. This would be similar to how basketball players practice dribbling two basketballs, not to become good at dribbling two basketballs, but to become better at dribbling one basketball by adding more challenges.

    Singing is also a way to review away from the instrument, but some people do the same thing in their head.
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  11. #33

    Default Re: Memorizing Chords and Progressions

    I’m new to mandolin, but as a guitar player, I always write down lyrics, placing chords over the place where they change. I also put the Nashville number system in parentheses next to the chord, to drive that system into my head and help understand how the progression moves, in any key. E-A-B is 1-4-5. So is B-E-F#. Same progression, different key.

    I find it much easier to understand and remember progressions looking at them that way.

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  13. #34

    Default Re: Memorizing Chords and Progressions

    Listening to recognize patterns is the key, for me. Identifying the patterns is next. Transposing is then relatively simple, if you understand the scalar chord structures, ie, the chords associated with each scale tone. Then your listening will allow you to hear and anticipate the changes. That way you can tell Salty Dog blues (a vi-ii-V-I) from Why You Been Gone So Long, a I-iv-V tune even if you’ve never heard them. The melody will point the way to the underlying pattern when your ear recognizes the pattern the leading tones are suggesting.

    Like everything worthwhile, it takes time and experience.
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    Default Re: Memorizing Chords and Progressions

    The longer you play, the more songs and tunes you learn, the more you begin to rely on patterns and remembered points of reference from all of this playing. It becomes apparent when you hear a new piece what is going on by the patterns of the chords and the movement of the melody. The repetition of playing with intention and learning while you play builds a reservoir of knowledge that allows you to hear the chords, know the arpeggios for those chords and the scales that fill out those arpeggios leading to a seemingly innate ability to hear something and then play it. The truth is that you are then just reaping the rewards of learning the chords, the arpeggios, the scales through hours of repetition. That is why we practice and why we jam and play at every chance we can.

  15. #36
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    Default Re: Memorizing Chords and Progressions

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Farney View Post
    I’m new to mandolin, but as a guitar player, I always write down lyrics, placing chords over the place where they change. I also put the Nashville number system in parentheses next to the chord, to drive that system into my head and help understand how the progression moves, in any key. E-A-B is 1-4-5. So is B-E-F#. Same progression, different key.
    I find it much easier to understand and remember progressions looking at them that way.
    Tim,
    I started the same as you, but later found that writing the progression where chunks of info could be taken in quickly worked better for me.

    Examples:
    C.....................CM7.................. Am (Periods are just place holders 'cause the forum software deletes spaces)
    I knew a man Bojangles and he’d dance for you

    Then I tended to change to:
    C CM7 Am...........I knew a man Bojangles and he’d dance for you
    (underlines mark where the changes go)

    Then:
    1 1M7 6m...........I knew a man Bojangles and he’d dance for you
    (underlines mark where the changes go)

    Then, in simple songs, just:
    1451
    Don't let your sweet love die like flowers in the Fall
    (could use underlines for changes here if needed)

    With more experience and hearing the changes coming, less notation is needed. (Knowing the song in your head before trying to learn to play it is extremely helpful to this process.)
    Phil

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    Default Re: Memorizing Chords and Progressions

    Quote Originally Posted by Philphool View Post
    With more experience and hearing the changes coming, less notation is needed. (Knowing the song in your head before trying to learn to play it is extremely helpful to this process.)
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    Default Re: Memorizing Chords and Progressions

    I don’t really understand this. Whether one can sing a tune depends principally on one’s singing ability. The human voice is a very difficult and limited instrument unless you start at a very early age. Fiddle tunes often run up and down the chords in even eight notes, and such passages are difficult to sing for most people.


    Would you say that a banjo player doesn’t know his rolls if he can’t sing them? I can’t sing Brilliancy, the first fiddle tune Iearned on the mandolin 50 years ago. Yet I don’t know it?


    Also you contrast singing with applying “muscle memory”. Of course, memory is really in the brain, but accepting this abus de langage, singing is *all about* muscle memory. You vary the pitch by varying the tension in your vocal cords, without the graphical or tactile aids available to the player of a fretted instrument.


    Finally, you don’t address the topic at all, since this thread is about chords, and most people can to a varying extent learn to identfiy chord sequences (and even details of voicing) obviously without being able to sing them.


    The original question most likely arises from some people’s attitudes of “learning” an instrument without learning (about) music, or of learning notes of a melody in sequence without grasping the form and layout of the tune. A couple of years back someone asked about a fairly simple tune how to identify its key, which normally is the first thing to find out when transcribing a song. And in a tab discussion a couple of years ago someone stated that the main advantage of tab is that you don’t have to worry about keys. Worry???????


    The natural procedure really is to learn the chords along with (or even before) the melody. But then of course, you will have to know something about chords, how they’re built, how they connect, how melodies relate to them, etc. That’s an essential part of learning an instrument.


    Of course, sometimes the chords aren’t uniquely determined by the melody. Do you want the I or V chord in the fourth bar of Old Joe Clark?


    Lots of people play a G chord in the third bar of St Anne’s Reel - I hear the g note as the 7th of the V chord (I believe that’s the way Tommy Jackson recorded it, and the way Barbara Higbie plays it). Worse yet, some even play a G chord in the 2nd bar of the B part, but then they haven’t really been listening.


    The mandolin is a a harmonically very limited instrument - I’m glad that I started on the guitar 10 years before picking up the mandolin because that’s where I learned *music*. The piano is an even better instrument for that, of course, regardless of your chosen instrument or genre. For instance, I’ ve known several prominent jazz saxophone players through the years, and all of them played the piano.
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  19. #39

    Default Re: Memorizing Chords and Progressions

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph johansson View Post
    I don’t really understand this. Whether one can sing a tune depends principally on one’s singing ability......
    This is a mis-understanding of what is meant by "singing", in this context. Here is an analogy with reading--- One can read silently to one's self without articulating the actual specific words, or one can read silently to one's self while mentally articulating each word. The second approach is not the same as the first. By articulating the actual words, even silently in one's head, one can actually edit, for example. Editing is virtually impossible via the first approach.

    "Singing" while playing can be done out loud, or in a manner similar to the 2nd example, above. You dont have to "sing" or be capable of "singing". But if you CANT mentally sing what you are playing, than I do not -PERSONALLY-- believe you are improvising. Maybe not even doing anything more than mechanically creating sounds---not that there is anything wrong with that, but is just isnt the same thing.

    I am willing to bet that the better horn players ARE "singing" their solos, as are players of other instruments.

    I am certainly not an expert, but I can vouch for the fact that attempting to learn to play what you can (at least mentally) sing, is liberating, and very very powerful. After all, if you can do this, than you essentially know how to play any song you can hear in your head.

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  21. #40

    Default Re: Memorizing Chords and Progressions

    I struggled to learn chord progressions while melodies were much easier to retain. I found that humming the melody while playing backup was the best way for me to associate the melody with the chords.

    I'm not a huge jazz guy but Louie Armstrong would scat almost exactly how he would play his horn. Clark Terry, Chet Baker, and George Benson also scat lines similar to how they play.

    At the jams that I go to, you can often hear players that sound like good improvisers at first and then you realize they have a canned approach to every solo. They have a few licks they know over different chord shapes and maybe they mix in some double-stops and pentatonic runs. It sounds pretty good but I'm not sure it is really improvising.

    Regardless, it isn't what I want to develop in my own improvisation so I stick with singing what I play.

  22. #41
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    Default Re: Memorizing Chords and Progressions

    Just let the melody tell you the chords. Work on training your ear how to fit chords to a melody. If you want, I can expand on this.
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    Default Re: Memorizing Chords and Progressions

    From Pete Martin - " Work on training your ear how to fit chords to a melody.." Work on training your ear - period !!. Regardless of whether you read music notation &/or TAB,you still need a 'good ear' for your music,especially in the event of playing 'on the fly' with other folks = Jamming. Having done just that for over 50 years,i can pick up on a melody line very quickly,& you get to anticipate chords / chord changes very easily as well - unless a melody happens to be a tad complex.

    'Ear playing' is something that really does need to be a part of your playing - there's no music or TAB for many tunes,so you need to be able to play them by ear - however,i suspect that we ALL know that !,
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    Default Re: Memorizing Chords and Progressions

    Quote Originally Posted by jshane View Post
    This is a mis-understanding of what is meant by "singing", in this context. Here is an analogy with reading--- One can read silently to one's self without articulating the actual specific words, or one can read silently to one's self while mentally articulating each word. The second approach is not the same as the first. By articulating the actual words, even silently in one's head, one can actually edit, for example. Editing is virtually impossible via the first approach.

    "Singing" while playing can be done out loud, or in a manner similar to the 2nd example, above. You dont have to "sing" or be capable of "singing". But if you CANT mentally sing what you are playing, than I do not -PERSONALLY-- believe you are improvising. Maybe not even doing anything more than mechanically creating sounds---not that there is anything wrong with that, but is just isnt the same thing.

    I am willing to bet that the better horn players ARE "singing" their solos, as are players of other instruments.

    I am certainly not an expert, but I can vouch for the fact that attempting to learn to play what you can (at least mentally) sing, is liberating, and very very powerful. After all, if you can do this, than you essentially know how to play any song you can hear in your head.
    Well, Mandocrucian uses the verbs "vocalize", "hum", "diddle", and talks about "singing on your instrument". Of course, I try to form a mental picture of the tunes I'm playing, and I'm sure that those with more agile vocal cords than mine are helped by vocalizing. But I reject the idea that inability to sing a tune equates not knowing it. Also, there are lots of instrumental devices that have no natural counterpart in singing, such as tremolo, crosspicking (on mandolin), double shuffle (on fiddle), alternating notes on two adjacent strings, or alternating stopped and open notes on one string, as in the 2nd part of Brilliancy. And those are the things that make certain fiddle tunes exciting to me.

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    Default Re: Memorizing Chords and Progressions

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Martin View Post
    Just let the melody tell you the chords. Work on training your ear how to fit chords to a melody. If you want, I can expand on this.

    Actually, Brilliancy is a very illustration of that. Almost all of it consists of runs up and down the chords and scale figures where almost all the chord notes fall on the beats and and's (counting 2/2). But I'm sure most of us learn tunes from band versions with, say, guitar or piano, so really all you should need is to listen to the accompaniment. In other words: you remember the chords because you know and understand them (and the harmonic structure). You know them because you hear them. And you hear them, because you know about chords, their construction, and relationships.

    In bluegrass you gotta be prepared for bimodality, such as Monroe's version of Dusty Miller, with minor penta (or possibly Dorian) on the coarse part and Mixolydian on the fine part, over major chords.

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    Default Re: Memorizing Chords and Progressions

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph johansson View Post
    Well, Mandocrucian uses the verbs "vocalize", "hum", "diddle", and talks about "singing on your instrument". Of course, I try to form a mental picture of the tunes I'm playing, and I'm sure that those with more agile vocal cords than mine are helped by vocalizing. But I reject the idea that inability to sing a tune equates not knowing it. Also, there are lots of instrumental devices that have no natural counterpart in singing, such as tremolo, crosspicking (on mandolin), double shuffle (on fiddle), alternating notes on two adjacent strings, or alternating stopped and open notes on one string, as in the 2nd part of Brilliancy. And those are the things that make certain fiddle tunes exciting to me.
    This is not a literal notion. It means that one 'sings it in your mind'. The same holds true for double stops, tremlo etc. In your head you say this sound goes HERE. It becomes a matter of connecting thoughts to the physical world. It is also a simplified version. One could do 'raspberries' with your lips for a tremlo, and it would be funny. But simplicity is the object in 'vocalizing' a tune.
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  29. #46
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    Default Re: Memorizing Chords and Progressions

    To call that singing is not a problem for me, but could be for some ... some folk have trouble conceding that a song is a tune, I'm not one of that mind. If singing is equated with vocalizing, then it's done through the vocal chords. But singing as an image of vocalization produced in the mind is still singing. We can "visualize" mentally, and likewise we can "vocalize" mentally. But I'm sure that for some, or many, or most of us there is a place even beyond that where the melody can be simply felt or channeled in a fashion that may transcend "mental vocalization." Something to consider, anyway.
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    Default Re: Memorizing Chords and Progressions

    Quote Originally Posted by DougC View Post
    This is not a literal notion. It means that one 'sings it in your mind'. The same holds true for double stops, tremlo etc. In your head you say this sound goes HERE. It becomes a matter of connecting thoughts to the physical world. It is also a simplified version. One could do 'raspberries' with your lips for a tremlo, and it would be funny. But simplicity is the object in 'vocalizing' a tune.
    This thread: https://mandolincafe.com/forum/threa...g-fiddle-tunes
    shows conclusively that mandocrucian uses words like "sing", "hum", "diddle" quite literally - how else could he tell that someone is unable to hum a given tune? By reading his mind?

    Again, I have no doubt that singing is helpful, if you've mastered *that* instrument, just as playing the guitar has been helpful to me in hearing and understanding the harmonic structure of various songs. I've watched videos of Barry Harris explaining certain passages or theoretical concepts by singing (but not very artfully). But he started playing at the age of four and I started to play the guitar at 13 and the mandolin 10 years later (today I'm 74), and I never really took an interest in singing (or listening to singers). Yet, to reconnect with the topic of the thread, there are several tunes that I learned most, or all, of on first hearing, such as Missouri Waltz (on the radio!), Rickett's Hornpipe, Devil's Dream, and Lonesome Moonlight Waltz, and with the possible exception of the last tune I can't sing them at all. And the reason I learned them fairly quickly is I was helped by the harmony, and the way the melody outlines the chords. And yet, according to mandocrucian, I don't know these tunes at all.

    So what I'm saying again is, in order to hear, know and memorize chords, you need to know a bit of harmony, and try not to transcribe tunes just one note or one chord after the other, but first attempt to understand how the tune hangs together, and the story it tells. E.g., Jerusalem Ridge to me is "three parts waiting for the third", the first two, mainy two chords, the third one introducing the iv or IV chord and the fourth reallly arousing you with that III chord (the root of the relative major)

    If singing is not about muscle memory, then how exactly do you control tension in the vocal cords?

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    Default Re: Memorizing Chords and Progressions

    Well Ralph you are right. However I see no reason why you argue with people. It seems to me you both describe aspects of learning that are valid.
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    Default Re: Memorizing Chords and Progressions

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Miller View Post
    How often do you play through the chord progression of a tune you know? It’s natural to skimp on that since the melody is what draws you to a fiddle tune. But I find that if I play the chord progression and hum the tune out loud or in my head, it helps me understand the melody at a deeper level beyond just memorizing the sequence of notes. For one thing, it wasn’t til I got much more conscious of the chords a given stretch of melody goes over that I could start varying the melody or improvising or borrowing melodic pieces from other tunes. It was just rote memorization before. So in my experience at least it’s really worth it to try to connect the chords to the melody mentally, and if you do that, I bet you’ll remember the chords a lot better.
    This. Practice over and over until the progression is as comfortable as the melody. And, as Mark points out, it is always good to know what chord you are playing over if you want to make up some variations or improv.
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    Default Re: Memorizing Chords and Progressions

    This is the best music memorization lesson I've seen out there:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC-8P-sapHw

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