Index Finger Pain - Left Hand

[Pa&Bud]

I know I know... this has been brought up before. I have searched through dozens of posts and not found a solution nor a completely analogous post.

I do not have gout, arthritis, trigger finger etc. I believe the problem is coming from not knowing how to hold the mandolin properly for fretting the F on the high E string. I've watched all of Pete's videos, Marshall's and pretty much every single one I could find on YouTube. I don't know if it is a limitation of my anatomy - but I'm hoping maybe someone could provide some pointers or potential solutions.

Essentially - the one unique thing about my index finger compared to fretting with all my other fingers is that I have to seriously cramp it together until all surfaces of my skin on the finger are touching. It is the only finger I have to cramp this hard with - and after I do it repeatedly - the soreness develops. Here are a couple pictures to hopefully explain better than words can:




If you have any tips or advice it would be most greatly appreciated.

And to those I don't know around here yet as I'm relatively new - hello!

Brian

[Mike Snyder]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]170228[/ATTACH
There simply is not enough room to make that note without cramping. I suggest you nip a bit off. Tends to free up some space on the fretboard.

[Pa&Bud]

Now that is the solution of a committed professional right there!

[pops1]

How high off the firs fret is the string? If it is too high coming off the nut it will be very hard to fret.

[Pa&Bud]

I don't have any gap measurement tools available at the moment - but I can barely slide one sheet of standard computer paper between the string and fret - with two sheets there is clear friction on the string and fret.

It seems to be the angle I'm having to crunch my finger into - essentially touching the pad of my index fingertip to the knuckle where the index finger joins the meaty part of the hand. It's uncomvfotable for me to do with any fingers - but it seems like the index finger on the first fret of the E string is the only situation where I need to do that.

Is it common to slide the hand much closer to the headstock for that fret? I am not at able to stay just in first position and finger that fret with any amount of comfort. I can slide my hand past the nut and up the headstock and do it - but then I'm sliding my hand a lot to move back to first position for the other notes in a song.

[pops1]

By the pic it looks like you could lower your palm away from the neck and maybe towards your thumb so the finger won't have to be so forced.

[Mike Snyder]

The hand looks to be in an uncomfortable position. Mike Marshall has a video where he shows great ergonomics of the L wrist and hand. And don’t cut it off, I was just kidding.

[Dave Sheets]

I don't know if this is "correct" or not, I'm not highly trained, but I can play long dances or gigs without a lot of strain. If I'm getting this wrong, I hope someone more learned will chime in.

In looking at my hand position my thumb is more or less on the neck opposite my 2nd finger, up around the 2nd or third fret, pretty much perpendicular to the neck, with the first joint of the thumb contacting the neck. I have to stretch the index finger "back" toward the highstock to hit the F natural on the F-string.

In the OP's picture it looks like the thumb is on the next on the far side of the index finger, almost on the back of the headstock, and pointed toward the headstock.

My fingers then curl or angle back toward the body of the instrument somewhat, with a much looser curl than the OP is showing. That gives them a bit more room to move, I think, without the tight curve the OP has in the index fingers. My fingers hit the fingerboard at a flatter angle, less vertical than the OP's picture.

It also looks like the palm is a bit close to the neck, if it is farther from the neck, you'll have more room to move.

This looks like a tense grip too, which is tiring and will cost you speed.

It looks like this Roland White video is showing a bit of what I mean:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7luLrY7uB4

This other video has a nice camera angle on it, I think, it shows the thumb position and how far the palm is from the neck

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8T1E5RgHyU

Best of luck! Fixing a handgrip and trying to stay relaxed is tough. But being relaxed is important to play fast and avoid injuries.

[colorado_al]

Move your wrist away from you. Don Stiernberg calls it "dropping your watch to the floor". It will allow you to maintain more curvature in your fingers, instead of 90° bends.
https://www.mandolincafe.com/news/pu...s_001188.shtml

[themandocello]

Mandolin teacher for 32 years here.

Move your thumb down opposite the 2nd fret. The thumb that far back puts an enormous amount of strain on the wrist (test that by putting your right hand around your wrist when it's relaxed...now with your thumb stretched out like it is in the picture. feel the difference?)

Also, do you chew your nails? It could also be cuticle pain, especially if they are stripped. Try a little clear nail polish to inhibit the desire to chew (it tastes awful).

[dlp]

I'm sure you'll get lots of differing advice here.

My take: bring your thumb forward, toward the bridge. In your pictures, your thumb is all the way back on the headstock itself. It should be more or less even with the knuckle of your first finger. Keep your wrist straight, and rotate the whole dang thing so that the knuckles of your second through fourth fingers are closer to the fretboard (that'll also keep you from having to reach all the way from outer space each time you want to use your fourth finger). Finally, loosen your vise grip between the thumb and first knuckle. It's okay to move that knuckle back a tiny bit to hit the first fret, but you really only need to move a millimeter or two.

[Pa&Bud]

Wow - lots of advice here for me to give a try. Thanks all - I'll try the ideas/solutions and hopefully post back with a thumbs up and a happy index finger.

[Pa&Bud]

Ok - so I am still working on implementing a lot of the advice given (thanks again - seriously appreciated - awesome when people are helpful), yet I'm getting a new problem for myself that I also haven't found a solution for.

The issue is that as I loosen the grip and implement the relaxation - I slowly push the entire fretboard solidly into the V between my thumb and index finger. Often I read "just relax" yet I am trying very hard to push just slightly harder than the point where the string will buzz against the fret (I have been doing the exercise where I just push a muted string slightly harder and harder until it hits the fret, then gets past the point to good tone and calling that the target).

Any tips on this? Are pictures necessary? Thanks again to all who have helped out and to any willing to add additional tips.

[Mike Snyder]

Again, that Mike Marshall video shows you about everything basic that you need. Support the instrument in place without support of the L hand. L thumb rides the edge of the neck at about first joint. Fretting fingers approach the board at an angle not perpendicular. Wrist straight and relaxed. Play finger tips, not pads. Whatever it takes to get the instrument balanced without support of the L hand, strap/ lap point/ forearm rest, whatever. You cannot support the neck in the crotch of your hand. Won’t work.

[Ivan Kelsall]

It looks to me as others have suggested - your hand is ''too bunched up''. Watch this clip of John Reischman, & look how the palm of his left hand runs almost parallel to the mandolin neck. Playing up at the first fret isn't easy,you simply need to find a way that's easier for you than what you're doing = experiment,
Ivan

[Robert Mitchell]

What kind of mandolin do you have??perhaps the relief
on the headstock is not enough and is preventing you
from sliding your hand back far enough,causing the
problem i see in the picture.

[dan in va]

Can you be more specific and pinpiont the place where the pain is, please? Hands and feet are pretty complex. A physical therapist who does hands or a doc who has done a hand fellowship would be worth the consult, as problems can worsen with repetition.

[Jim Garber]

Pa&Bud: it looks to me like your hand is strangely angled with your thumb under the headstock. Ideally find a good mandolin teacher or player who can give you in-person advice to correct that hand position. Maybe you are holding the mandolin at the wrong angle? Are you trying to see the front of the fretboard. It is hard to tell what it is you are doing. Perhaps post a full picture of you holding it in playing position?

[Pa&Bud]

The pain seems to be in the knuckle closest to my hand, and on the palm side of the finger between the two knuckles.

That video of Reischman looks like magic is involved to me. I've watched the videos before, and multiple times, but clearly there is just something I'm not getting. I'm unable to move my hand up and down the fretboard like that, and if I try to be loose enough so that I can, I don't have the fretboard supported by anything so it slides back into the V.

As Jim mentioned - I am, more often than not, trying to look at the fretboard. It's exaggerated in that picture due to just trying to take the picture - but it is definitely a habit I am trying to break.

Clearly there is just something I am unable to grasp or learn. This has all been great advice, I watch the videos, I try to imitate, and I just fail entirely at doing so. Apparently I am a darn slow learner for this aspect of playing (among the many).

Tomorrow I will be meeting up with an experienced player in person and I'm hoping there's an "Aha!" moment or at least some direction to head specifically. I understand the goal, just not why I'm failing to make progress and what progress to follow.

[Pa&Bud]

Also - since people have been so helpful - maybe I can upload some pics or a little video clip if I don't find success after tomorrow's consult with an actual experienced player instead of just me trying to figure out the physical reality from words I read and videos I watch.

Thanks again to all who have helped! I genuinely appreciate it.

[Pa&Bud]

Well I'm still behind whatever mental block i'm experiencing in performing a proper grip/technique. My index finger is hurting, but once it feels a bit better I'll post some pictures of what I'm talking about.

Whenever I have to run my fingers up the board (like the high part in Angeline the baker - going F#,G,A, F#,D for example) my index finger ends up curled extremely tightly like the pictures posted before. If I put one finger on at a time and remove it then put another finger on etc. it is fine, but playing doesn't really allow for that.

Sigh... why the hell am I struggling so damn much with this

[pops1]

Where are you at in Minnesota, I am in Wisconsin and maybe we are close enough to get together so I can see what you are doing. You can send me a PM with the info if you like.

[Pa&Bud]

Ok - I'm too obsessed to just let this go. I'm going to do my best to use pictures to explain my issue.

These are pictures of me holding F#,G,A on the first string in Angeline the Baker. With the way I hold it, my index finger is bent so tightly as to leave basically no room at all between any surfaces of the finger. Here are the pics trying to demonstrate that with the way I hold it.



Now - I've been experimenting - and although keeping the first knuckle of my index finger against the fretboard for most of my playing seems to be a good fit - it results in that type wrap on the first (e) string. I read somewhere about dropping your hand as if your thumb on the fretboard is the only thing holding it up. When I drop it, taking my knuckle off the fretboard/nut, it creates space between the fretboard and my hand and it is definitely more comfortable and easy to do. Then, however, I end up with the neck slowly heading down toward the V in my hand. here are the pics which I hope explain what I'm trying.



I did my best to show how dropping my hand removes the tight bend in my index finger, and creates the space all around the fretboard, while showing the back to demonstrate (hopefully) how my pushing on the frets on the first string slowly pushes the neck into the V.

This technique helps my finger, but seems like I can only do it briefly, and then have to switch back to my knuckle area being on the nut/fretboard.

If I'm just wasting people's time and poorly explaining this let me know and I'll stop trying to do it via forum posts. This is just the only area I really know to go for advice, however I may be able to get some face to face help in the future.

[Pa&Bud]

Also . quick addition - that "technique" requires me pushing down pretty hard on my thumb - so the mandolin has to be extremely well supported. Just doesn't seem like a good solution.

[gtani7]

How long have you been playing and do you practice consistently every day? I think it's a matter of building strength/endurance and callouses slowly and practicing barre chords, 4 finger chops and other things that make you spread the fingers. To do so, you have to turn the palm towards headstock or away from headstock to make the reaches, depending on what you're fretting. Play with strap on so mando is always in position and if you can get a video up, that's the best diagnostic. So many variables

In the meantime, you can use light gauge strings, low action, tune down a half step, or even remove one string per course to practice your relaxed fretting action. and picking softer/less vigorously seems to encourage a less clenched left hand.