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Thread: Buyer does not cover PayPal fees

  1. #1
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Buyer does not cover PayPal fees

    Irks me to no end when I see ads in the classifieds that state things like, "Buyer pays PayPal fees" - when this is meant to convey that the seller accepts PayPal, but he's going to charge a surcharge from the buyer, on top of his asking price, to cover PayPal fees.

    The reason this bothers me is because it tells me up front that I'm dealing with a seller who is in total disregard of his contract with PayPal! I believe that a seller should be honest in honoring his contract with PayPal's User Agreement.

    Accepting Payments From Buyers for Goods and Services


    Receiving personal payments

    If you use your PayPal account to receive payments for the sale of goods and services or accept donations, you must not ask your buyer to send you money using the “send money to a friend or family member.” If you do so, PayPal may remove your PayPal account’s ability to accept payments from friends or family members.

    No surcharges

    You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment method. You may charge a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge and is not higher than the handling fee you charge for non-PayPal transactions.
    To break it down, a person who sells an item and wishes to have the convenience of offering PayPal must pay a fee on the transaction. This is part of the seller's cost of business, and this cost should be considered by the seller when he arrives at an asking price. In other words, get enough money for your item to cover the fee you know as a business person you must pay!

    It is a violation of the PayPal User Agreement to charge a customer a surcharge for using PayPal! The price paid by a PayPal user should be the same as a price paid by any other method. If a seller charges any fee on top of his asking price to a PayPal user, he or she must charge the same fee to buyers who do not use PayPal.

    None of this is rocket science. In the past when things like this have been brought up in this forum, always there have been discussions about why some people feel justified in breaking the user agreement. But there can be no question that sellers who require buyers to pay extra on top of their asking price to cover PayPal fees are in violation of their merchant users agreement with PayPal.

    So discuss it if you want, but as a long-time seller using PayPal, I know what the agreement is, and I only post about this because I see it in the classifieds and am hoping maybe offenders are unaware of the agreement they have with PayPal and will benefit from this post -- to the end that they will ask enough money for their items up front, and stop requesting buyers to pay additional fees ...
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  3. #2
    Registered User slimt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Buyer does not cover PayPal fees

    I wont do business with a seller that asks for the extra of to cough up additional funds. so they dont lose out on there 50 bucks..
    I also wont do business with a seller that over inflates prices for shipping to compinsate for there paypal fees.. ..

    The reason most wont sell on ebay is the final value fees that they take.. which is alot..

    long story short.. if the seller cannot accept a loss for there high gain.. there not worth doing business with..

    I agree with what you have said.

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    plectrist Ryk Loske's Avatar
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    Default Re: Buyer does not cover PayPal fees

    All 10 thumbs up from here!
    Scott has covered this amply; the buyer paying fees and the seller wanting to use "friends and family". The seller has an agreement with PayPal but intends to disregard it. Your word is you word is your word. How can a buyer expect an honest transaction when the seller has demonstrated a disregard for an agreement willingly made.
    Ryk
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    Registered User Steve Baker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Buyer does not cover PayPal fees

    Well, I had forgotten about this. Been a long time since I signed up with PayPal. I tend to agree with you. The PayPal fee is not unreasonable and is really no different from what the credit card companies charge merchants who use them. My $0.02.
    Steve

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  9. #5

    Default Re: Buyer does not cover PayPal fees

    The Seller doesn’t get any ‘convenience’ from using PayPal - having the money immediately available isn’t that convenient when it really can’t be spent until after the Approval period after the buyer receives the instrument The buyer gets PayPal’s buyer’s guarantee, a safe way of tracking the transaction, and a way to get his money back. If you’re not sure of a buyer, then that is worth upfronting 3%. Sending a check or a bank check puts you at the Sellers discretion - although with the added Security checks Scott provides that isn’t really an issue, as is using PayPal’s Friends and Family feature to reduce the overhead to the Seller. Most transactions are negotiable and PayPal fees and Shipping costs are usually negotiated. Nobody on the Cafe is trying to screw anybody else, in my experience. All transactions are Mano-A-Mano and throwing down ‘absolutes’ in hypothetical situations does not foster harmony.

  10. #6
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Buyer does not cover PayPal fees

    Quote Originally Posted by Dacraw54 View Post
    and throwing down ‘absolutes’ in hypothetical situations does not foster harmony.
    Neither does presumption and misrepresentation foster harmony, Dacraw54. It would be a misrepresentation of what I've written to say that I'm "throwing down absolutes" ... also to characterize the practices referred to as "hypothetical situations" ... I can't be sure I'm understanding you correctly, you know, whether that was your intent by those words.

    When you write, "Most transactions are negotiable and PayPal fees and Shipping costs are usually negotiated. Nobody on the Cafe is trying to screw anybody else, in my experience." You may be correct, and those are pretty broad generalizations.

    What I'm saying is not hypothetical: Folk sometimes write in their classified ads, "Buyer covers PayPal fees." If their intent at the outset is to charge the buyer a fee on top of their asking price in order to avoid paying PayPal fees out of their gross receipts, then they are in violation of their agreement with PayPal in my estimation, and I do not see that as "throwing down an absolute." Their agreement with PayPal is either done in good faith or it is not ... or perhaps they violate unwittingly ... in which case this post and any discussion of it may be of good service.
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  12. #7

    Default Re: Buyer does not cover PayPal fees

    PayPal provides the Family and Friends option - perhaps you should put your argument to them and ask why they are forgoing all those fees when they are so deserving of skimming a few bucks off the top. Aren’t we all really ‘family’ here?

  13. #8
    fishing with my mando darrylicshon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Buyer does not cover PayPal fees

    Most items I sell I offer free shipping, just what I am asking for, I eat all fees , that's the way I like to sell my items, definitely not fair to ask for the buyer to pay PayPal fees
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  15. #9
    plectrist Ryk Loske's Avatar
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    Default Re: Buyer does not cover PayPal fees

    Quote Originally Posted by Dacraw54 View Post
    The Seller doesn’t get any ‘convenience’ from using PayPal - having the money immediately available isn’t that convenient when it really can’t be spent until after the Approval period after the buyer receives the instrument The buyer gets PayPal’s buyer’s guarantee, a safe way of tracking the transaction, and a way to get his money back. If you’re not sure of a buyer, then that is worth upfronting 3%. Sending a check or a bank check puts you at the Sellers discretion - although with the added Security checks Scott provides that isn’t really an issue, as is using PayPal’s Friends and Family feature to reduce the overhead to the Seller. Most transactions are negotiable and PayPal fees and Shipping costs are usually negotiated. Nobody on the Cafe is trying to screw anybody else, in my experience. All transactions are Mano-A-Mano and throwing down ‘absolutes’ in hypothetical situations does not foster harmony.
    If you have used PayPal you have read and agreed to the way Pay Pal operates. If you won't honor that agreement what is there to make a seller comfortable purchasing from you. Read the agreement.
    Ryk
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    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Buyer does not cover PayPal fees

    Quote Originally Posted by Dacraw54 View Post
    PayPal provides the Family and Friends option - perhaps you should put your argument to them and ask why they are forgoing all those fees when they are so deserving of skimming a few bucks off the top. Aren’t we all really ‘family’ here?
    I would suggest, my friend - and I don't write that lightly; you're a fellow cafe member and I take your intentions in good faith - I would suggest that you yourself write PayPal and ask the question you are confused on there. It is not a question on my mind at all. The friends and family option is covered, as it relates to seller transactions, in the quote I made from PayPal. You can also find policy about it from mandolincafe in the Classified's guidelines - no protection in this forum when you do that.
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    plectrist Ryk Loske's Avatar
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    Default Re: Buyer does not cover PayPal fees

    Quote Originally Posted by Dacraw54 View Post
    PayPal provides the Family and Friends option - perhaps you should put your argument to them and ask why they are forgoing all those fees when they are so deserving of skimming a few bucks off the top. Aren’t we all really ‘family’ here?
    The Yoga Cafe??? That's a stretch!

    Ryk
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  19. #12

    Default Re: Buyer does not cover PayPal fees

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryk Loske View Post
    If you have used PayPal you have read and agreed to the way Pay Pal operates. If you won't honor that agreement what is there to make a seller comfortable purchasing from you. Read the agreement.
    Ryk
    I merely offer all legit PayPal Options. Using Friends and Family option bypasses the fee, it does not pass it on to the buyer. Everything is up front in my transactions and I offer a Refund unless the buyer is 100% satisfied with the transaction.

  20. #13

    Default Re: Buyer does not cover PayPal fees

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    I would suggest, my friend - and I don't write that lightly; you're a fellow cafe member and I take your intentions in good faith - I would suggest that you yourself write PayPal and ask the question you are confused on there. It is not a question on my mind at all. The friends and family option is covered, as it relates to seller transactions, in the quote I made from PayPal. You can also find policy about it from mandolincafe in the Classified's guidelines - no protection in this forum when you do that.
    Great, then there’s no confusion then.

  21. #14
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Buyer does not cover PayPal fees

    No intention of dogpiling here, this discussion should be civil, and yes can be considered a family matter if you like.

    I've been using PP for seller transactions for many years. My understanding of 'Family & Friends' option is that it is for giving or moving money between family and friends for other purposes than business purposes - it is not an option for sales or purchases covered by any purchaser or merchants protections.

    Sometimes, family members and friends engage in business - which is kept separate from familial or fraternal relationships by the wise.
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    Default Re: Buyer does not cover PayPal fees

    I used to ask the buyer to pay the PayPal fee and shipping fee on top of the listed price of the item. Now I just price my item 5% higher. Buyer still pays, but it is not an added cost, it is included in the asking price.

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  25. #16
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Buyer does not cover PayPal fees

    Quote Originally Posted by colorado_al View Post
    I used to ask the buyer to pay the PayPal fees on top of the listed price of the item. Now I just price my item 3% higher. Buyer still pays, but it is not an added cost, it is included in the asking price.
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  27. #17

    Default Re: Buyer does not cover PayPal fees

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    Business 101
    And since the price is negotiable that will be the first item discussed... then shipping and insurance.

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    Default Re: Buyer does not cover PayPal fees

    PS- most used instrument prices are negotiable. If a buyer offers you a price that is too low for you to get what you want, make a counter offer. This isn't rocket surgery.

  29. #19

    Default Re: Buyer does not cover PayPal fees

    Nothing really new here.......I remember vintage dealers 30 years ago charging 3 percent extra if you used your American Express credit card (always known for charging businesses higher rates).......long before the internet. Very common practice. Probably not fair, but back then you did what you needed to do, if someone had an instrument you were interested in. Sometimes you have to deal with some "slick" characters, IMHO.

    Conversely, many stores including Mandolin Brothers, listed discounted prices for cash.....

  30. #20
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    Default Re: Buyer does not cover PayPal fees

    "Friends & Family" is for transferring cash with no product involved. They don't charge a fee because there's no delivery guarantee and no product quality guarantee. They use established banking procedures with virtually no risk of having to return someone's payment.
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  32. #21
    Registered User Charlie Bernstein's Avatar
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    Default Re: Buyer does not cover PayPal fees

    Not worth worrying about. It's all a shuck, since most asking prices are negotiable. When they post an instrument for $1,500 or best offer plus shipping, Paypal fees, and 2% to Mando Cafe, it just means that part of whatever you end up paying is going to those fees.

    The "or best offer" pretty much cancels out any jive about who pays the various related costs. You pay what the seller says yes to, and the seller parses it any way the seller pleases.

  33. #22
    Registered User fscotte's Avatar
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    Default Re: Buyer does not cover PayPal fees

    Really depends on what youre buying and from whom youre buying it. If youre buying a $2500 mando from a dealer, then yes I understand the frustration of the seller asking the buyer to pay the paypal fee. But if youre buying a mando from a 1 man band luthier who is only making 30% on his builds, then the buyer paying the paypal fees may be appropriate and the kind thing to do.

  34. #23
    Mediocre but OK with that Paul Busman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Buyer does not cover PayPal fees

    For my whistles I ask customers for a check (in the US only). If they ask about PayPal I'll tell them that that's OK, but Pay Pal charges me 3% that I'd just as soon keep. I don't charge them for the 3%. Some add it,some don't and I'm OK with it either way. I don't think that this is against the TOS although it's perhaps a grey area.
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  36. #24
    two t's and one hyphen fatt-dad's Avatar
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    Default Re: Buyer does not cover PayPal fees

    words like, "Firm," "No-Lowball," or "Cover PayPal fees" receive zero further consideration from me. It creates an intended wall from person-to-person discussions. Anybody that feels the need to start off that way has limited me as a buyer.

    I don't get mad; however. I got instruments to play either way!

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  38. #25
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    Default Re: Buyer does not cover PayPal fees

    I agree that, as a seller, if you use PayPal, you should abide by your user agreement. Calling us all family here is a real stretch. And using Friends and Family as an option is not meant for buying and selling merchandise, and we all know it. If you have to raise the price to cover your fees, knock yourself out, that’s preferable to saying “buyer pays fees” which violates the rules. The results are the same, so just do it that way if you must.

    I also am kind of put off by ads that say “firm” since that shuts down all negotiations, but I have said “no lowballs “ myself. I just don’t want my time wasted by someone who tries to prey on me and swoop in to offer 50 percent of what we both know it’s worth. Another thing that annoys me is people giving different reasons for selling. If you say something like “selling because the tax man come-eth” or “my kids are off to college” makes you sound desperate and that’s an invitation to all the bottom feeders looking for a flipping opportunity. So to me that’s just insulting and of course I ignore them, but they waste my time, which is of value to me.

    I have only done a few ads, but when I do I try to keep it simple. No sob stories. I have this instrument. I don’t want it anymore. I would like it to go to someone who does want it. I would like to get a fair price for it if it meets your needs. And I mean fair for both parties. I try to price in shipping and fees and just say here is the price, right to your door. Of course I am willing to listen to reasonable offers. What is that, you say? We all know it when we see it. If I’m selling for 1000 asking price, and someone offers 900, that’s reasonable. I might make a counter offer of 950 and we might settle at 925. That’s what reasonable people do. If someone offers me 500, that’s unreasonable. Like Rick on Pawn Stars says, “We’re too far apart man. We just aren’t going to be able to make a deal today!”

    So I do say “no lowballs”. I don’t think that’s asking too much. If that causes you to take a pass on my ad, so be it. I value my time and I value my sanity.
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