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Thread: capo, capo no

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    Default capo, capo no

    I am new to music and decided to start with the mandolin. And I am 57. How is the easiest way to convert chords when my guitar friends capo up? I can find most of the chords but have trouble when the capo 3 and play a song in EM. thanks

  2. #2
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: capo, capo no

    Guitar capo 3, playing Em shape -- you would play a Gm on your mandolin.

    I don't know any tricks for this, it takes time to learn (experience) to transpose in your head, gives me trouble sometimes because I'm easily confused always, about just about anything.
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    I may be old but I'm ugly billhay4's Avatar
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    Default Re: capo, capo no

    A little chord theory would help here. But since they're playing in a minor chord, it won't be very simple (there are three minor variations of each key at least). However, remember that every minor chord has a flatted third note. I found Zach Borden's video's to be very helpful.
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    Default Re: capo, capo no

    The easiest way to deal with it is to learn the number system for chords then to learn the I, IV and V chords in each key and the minors to go with those keys. If you learn those for C, A, G, E, D, B, Bflat and F you will have covered most of the commonly used keys

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    Default Re: capo, capo no

    Quote Originally Posted by CarlM View Post
    The easiest way to deal with it is to learn the number system for chords then to learn the I, IV and V chords in each key and the minors to go with those keys. If you learn those for C, A, G, E, D, B, Bflat and F you will have covered most of the commonly used keys
    And if you learn three finger chords you can play them in any key up down and across the neck with impunity. Moveable feast!
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    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
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    Default Re: capo, capo no

    if they put the capo on 3rd fret you play chords 3 half steps up G,.. G# , A, A#/Bb.

    Chord forms can be 're fingered' . index finger barre, stopping 4th & 3rd strings 33, ring finger 5, pinky 6..
    3rd of chord is your ring finger, so using middle finger instead , minor chord is 3346..
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    Default Re: capo, capo no

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    And if you learn three finger chords you can play them in any key up down and across the neck with impunity. Moveable feast!
    This is the least confusing way to me. If the guitar is playing a G position capped on third fret play your G up three frets (Bb) if the guitar is playing a D position up 2frets play your D up two frets ( E). I guess the Nashville numbering system would help from there but I just think in patterns on the fretboard. G over one string is C, up 2frets is D then back to G pattern is same for Ab, A, Bb, C then D and back to G turns pattern around. I learned this long before anyone I knew had heard of the Nashville numbering system and I ain't crazy about anything out of Nashville these days anyhow.

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    Registered User Roger Moss's Avatar
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    Default Re: capo, capo no

    I'm getting vertigo trying to keep up here. Theory is not my forte. Can someone point me to an idiot level explanation of all this?
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    Default Re: capo, capo no

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Moss View Post
    I'm getting vertigo trying to keep up here. Theory is not my forte. Can someone point me to an idiot level explanation of all this?
    To understand what the guitar is doing, there are five major chords on guitar with open strings: C A G E and D. There are three minor chord shapes Am, Em And Dm. All other chord shapes require all the strings to be fretted. The purpose of the capo is to retain the ringing sound of the open strings. The guitarist will be playing in a key that is from one of those chords. The capo will raise by one half step for each fret above the nut. So if the capo is on the third fret, the chords and key will be raised by 1 1/2 steps.

    A couple of examples.: the capo is on the second fret. The guitarist is playing the chords as if he were in the key of C. Those would be C, F and G. Each of these is raised by a whole step (two half steps) so the mandolin plays D, G and A for each of those chords. The actual key is D.

    The capo is on the fourth fret and the guitarist is playing the same set of chord forms. They are now raised two whole steps (four half steps) and the new chords that the mandolinist plays corresponding to C, F and G shapes are E, A and B. The key is now E.

    The guitarist has the capo on the third fret. He is playing as if he were in the key of G. The chord forms he plays look like G, C and D. They are each raised 1 1/2 steps for the three frets. The new chords the mandolinist plays are B flat, E flat and F. The key has become B flat. This is like the original post where he was dealing with an E minor chord shape which has now become G minor.

    Hopefully this helps.

    For practical purposes most of the guitarists will capo in only a few spots with a handful of chord shapes so it becomes easier to sort out. Earl Scruggs on his guitar work, Gillian Welch/David Rawlings and a handful of others will capo above the fifth fret. Mostly guitarists will go to on frets two or four, sometimes on three and five.

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  12. #10

    Default Re: capo, capo no

    I don't think there is a shortcut to learning some theory, although I find a keyboard much better for learning chords and inversions and how they sound. A $150 keyboard will help a lot there. Keyboards are very visual, you can see how the chords and keys relate to each other, stringed instruments to me are not ideal for learning theory.

    But for the ops question:
    Em is relative to G (so the G chords and scale will work, and G is a 'friendly' key for mandlin).
    Gm is relative to Bb, a less friendly key, so that explains the difficulty.

    Bb scales can be played in the open position, but the pesky Eb on the A string requires the pinky, a little tough for beginners.

    The chords are nastier: Bb, Cm, Dm, Eb, F, Gm (I, II, III, IV, V, VI). I wouldn't consider most of those beginner chords myself.
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    Scroll Lock Austin Bob's Avatar
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    Default Re: capo, capo no

    Having never used a capo for my first 30+ years of guitar playing, adjusting to a choir setting where they were used all the time was a challenge at first. But now it seems as very easy, and becomes automatic over time.

    Carl explained it very well. If a song is in the key of G, the major chords would be G, C and D. But if G is too low of a key for the singer, the guitar player can put the capo on the second fret, and play the same shapes, but now the singer would be singing it in A.

    A mandolin, fiddle or bass player would play the song in the key of A, and would now play A, D and E. It helps to know what the I, IV, and V chords are for any key (G, C, and D) for the example above. Do a Google search for "guitar key capo chart" and you can find sites with a lot of good info out there.
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    Default Re: capo, capo no

    I am in complete agreement about no shortcuts to theory. Being a jazz player, theory rules. However, there have been a couple requests for a simple method. I think the easiest method is to learn closed four (minimally three) finger chords in first position. If you can play the majors and minors closed, then its just a matter of moving up the same number of frets as the guitar capos up.
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    Default Re: capo, capo no

    Importance of learning some theory - especially as related to "chord building" - cannot be overemphasized IMO. And it takes time along with playing (making music) over a time span.

    Some pros will tell you that they never learned theory, but in fact pretty much all of them have -- they know enough to know what chords to use in a given key (diatonic harmony), they know to flat the third to get a minor chord, they know to lower the root a full step to get a 7 chord, etc. etc.

    Don't neglect to learn these things even if your favorite pro says he doesn't know any theory!
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    Default Re: capo, capo no

    No capo
    Last edited by mee; Jun-19-2018 at 7:43pm.

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    Default Re: capo, capo no

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    Importance of learning some theory - especially as related to "chord building" - cannot be overemphasized IMO. And it takes time along with playing (making music) over a time span.

    Some pros will tell you that they never learned theory, but in fact pretty much all of them have -- they know enough to know what chords to use in a given key (diatonic harmony), they know to flat the third to get a minor chord, they know to lower the root a full step to get a 7 chord, etc. etc.

    Don't neglect to learn these things even if your favorite pro says he doesn't know any theory!
    Bruce Lee used to call his martial arts the "Technique of No Technique." In reality, he was well versed in virtually every technique and flowed from one to another effortlessly. Very much like what masters like Grisman and Thille do. I guess you have to know everything to know what you don't know.
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    Default Re: capo, capo no

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Moss View Post
    I'm getting vertigo trying to keep up here. Theory is not my forte. Can someone point me to an idiot level explanation of all this?
    If a guitar player uses a capo, they are altering the key of the song. If the cords are G, C, and D played with a capo at the third fret, the guitar player is actually playing in the key of Bb. Without a capo they'd be in the key of G.

    Most mandolin players avoid the use of the capo. (Capoes don't exist for double bass and violin, as far as I know.) So to play along in the same key as the guitar player and banjo player, we need to know the actual key rather than the capo position.

    Nashville numbering helps, because you can simply use the numbers to indicate the chords if you already know the key. Capo at the third fret (again), the guitar player can think of things as the key of G (G=I, C=IV, D=V) and everyone else can think of things as being in Bb (also I, IV, and V, but Bb, Eb, and F in real life).

    Getting a bit of basic threory under your belt will really help with all this. It's not rocket science, more a bit of rote memorization and understanding a few relationships between chords and scales.

    I hope this helps!
    Daniel

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    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: capo, capo no

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Nestlerode View Post
    (Capoes don't exist for double bass and violin, as far as I know.)
    I haven't seen any either per se.

    BUT

    I have seen fiddlers tune down to match a Cajun accordion

    I've seen fiddlers tune to other instruments and use scordatura.

    I've seen Polish folk fiddlers use a piece of leather thong tied around a violin neck as a capo.

    So no, there may not be commercial capos for bowed strings, but there are tricks to get the open strings to where you want them.

    Capos are often called "cheaters" when used to change key of a song due to lack of chord knowledge of the player.

    However the capo is a great idea when one wants to use the open strings of an instrument. This is not cheating but choosing.

  21. #18
    Registered User Roger Moss's Avatar
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    Default Re: capo, capo no

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Nestlerode View Post
    If a guitar player uses a capo, they are altering the key of the song. If the cords are G, C, and D played with a capo at the third fret, the guitar player is actually playing in the key of Bb. Without a capo they'd be in the key of G.

    Most mandolin players avoid the use of the capo. (Capoes don't exist for double bass and violin, as far as I know.) So to play along in the same key as the guitar player and banjo player, we need to know the actual key rather than the capo position.

    Nashville numbering helps, because you can simply use the numbers to indicate the chords if you already know the key. Capo at the third fret (again), the guitar player can think of things as the key of G (G=I, C=IV, D=V) and everyone else can think of things as being in Bb (also I, IV, and V, but Bb, Eb, and F in real life).

    Getting a bit of basic threory under your belt will really help with all this. It's not rocket science, more a bit of rote memorization and understanding a few relationships between chords and scales.

    I hope this helps!
    Daniel
    I get the concept of capoing, and can do some basic transposing. But when you start to get into complicated letters and roman numerals (what the heck is a "myxolidian"), you've lost me. Long ago, I sat down and tried to figue out the circle of fifths. Two bottles of extra - strength Excedrin later I realized a high level of musical achievement was not in the cards for me. That was when I decided the fun for me was in straightforward banging out chords on the couch. If not the satisfaction of accomplishment, I at least have joy from playing. You've got to know your limitations.
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  22. #19

    Default Re: capo, capo no

    Quote Originally Posted by tankertoad View Post
    I am new to music and decided to start with the mandolin. And I am 57. How is the easiest way to convert chords when my guitar friends capo up? I can find most of the chords but have trouble when the capo 3 and play a song in EM. thanks
    You have a few choices...learn some basic theory, use a capo, or sit there and watch everyone else play. Check out Mandolessons, Banjo Ben, Matt Flinner and tons of other resources on the web. Spring for a lesson or two from a pro who can show you the chord systems that will get you up and running. If you know where the root of a chord is and basic chord theory as to how major and minor chords are constructed you don’t even need to know the chords just the system.

    You don’t have to get a Ph.D in music theory to do this, a few moments a day and you’ll have it very quickly. Don’t be intimidated by theory, even the pros who say they don’t know it know it...for some reason people like to brag about ignorance rather than knowledge. Have fun!
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    two t's and one hyphen fatt-dad's Avatar
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    Default Re: capo, capo no

    if you just want to chord along, learn the four-finger chop chords. They don't need a capo. They also seem impossible at first. They're not! Just practice.

    If you are playing melody and if the melody was written for some other instrument, sometimes a capo helps! I use a capo on one or two pieces by Bach. Sure, I could play it in an easier key, but sometimes I play with others.

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    Default Re: capo, capo no

    I carry a capo in my case and used it just last Sunday - loaned it to a guitarist who forgot his.

    Seriously, learn the 3 basic shapes/inversions for 3 string chords and you'll quickly figure out that a capo actually limits where you can play around the neck. I'm also a big fan of the Nashville Number System, just because it helped me learn the relationships between chords in various keys, and how easy it is to play anywhere on a mandolin fretboard.
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  26. #22

    Default Re: capo, capo no

    If you're going to use a capo on mandolin, you have to do it the right way: first, position the capo very carefully so it is right over the trash. Then let it fall with one swift motion. The capo will function perfectly from then on.

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  28. #23
    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
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    Default Re: capo, capo no

    Count on your fingers ... ? play only in C Major?

    visualize a piano keyboard; 2 black keys, a space, and 3 back keys and a space

    where the black keys ar not, is where no sharps or flats for the white keys on either side..

    no black keys between B&C and E&F,,


    http://www.dummies.com/art-center/mu...s-cheat-sheet/

    Personally I run out of room on the neck being so short on a mandolin ,

    Irish bouzouki and tenor banjo have longer necks.. more room ..




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  29. #24

    Default Re: capo, capo no

    Me, I just put a capo on the mandolin, and folks are free to disapprove all they like. Myself and the people I'm playing with still have a good time making music, so I think we're coming out winners.

  30. #25
    Registered User mee's Avatar
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    Default Re: capo, capo no

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogstar View Post
    Me, I just put a capo on the mandolin, and folks are free to disapprove all they like. Myself and the people I'm playing with still have a good time making music, so I think we're coming out winners.
    That's fine for you, I simply answered the question for me, capo, capo no. I started with a capo myself and had fun but it wasn't until I quit using it that I realized I had been hindered and have much more fun now having the whole fretboard free. But I don't see where my simple answer was disapproving of anyone else.

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