Mandola and standard notation reading

[Explorer]

I'm going to point out the website for the IMSLP. Petrucci Music Library...

http://imslp.org

...which is a great source for public-domain music.

I've used various viola works and studies in alto clef, and cello works and studies in bass clef, to work on reading those clefs for CGDA tuning. There are even tenor banjo materials there in treble clef which are usable for mandola.

Good luck!

[mandocrucian]

Unless you are playing an arrangement specifically notated/scored for an ensemble - trio, quartet, etc., where the register of supporting lines makes a sonic difference, it is pretty irrelevant when you are just playing a melody line/tune as it "actual notated pitch" or an octave above.

Also, almost all (non-classical) guitar transcriptions are actually notated an octave above what is played on the instrument. The only guitar book I've ever seen that was notated in non-transposed actual pitch (using double treble/bass staves ala piano music, pain in the ass to read too) was a Johnny Smith ("Walk Don't Run") tunebook.

NH

[Mark Gunter]

Niles' point about practicality is a great one. I've seen notes about how guitar music is notated in a different octave, and have only ever really used treble clef for guitar, and in grade school, cornet. I never understood much about the C clefs until this past week, reading in this website David Brown linked to in another thread. It all makes good sense now.

For more info, here's that site: CLEFS

As far as I understand:
Once upon a time, there were eleven lines. This was found hard to read (maybe spectacles weren't so advanced ), so the middle line was deleted, and when the note ("middle C") was needed, a small part of the line (a "ledger line") was written for the note to appear on.
The whole concept of different clefs is merely the original system at an increased zoom level.

From the site linked above:

The nice thing about alto clef is that middle C is on the middle line of the staff!

No other clef can say that.

Yes!

[J.C. Bryant]

Thank you Mark, very informative. I also know it requires a lot of "woodshed" study and work. I'm trying to do that with the alto clef. I don't know if I will every, in any way, be accomplished, but as you say, it is fun. thanks

[Martin Jonas]

Also, almost all (non-classical) guitar transcriptions are actually notated an octave above what is played on the instrument.

I think this is the source of most of the confusion in this thread: all guitar music and all octave mandolin (European mandola in GDAE) music is written in octave treble clef, i.e. written one octave higher than what is played on the instrument. In other words, middle C is the space above the middle line in the notation. That is meant to be indicated by a small number "8" at the bottom of the clef. Unfortunately, many editors (in particular in non-classical genres) omit the "8" and rely on "everybody knows that it's octave treble", which is fine until somebody doesn't.

For the CGDA mandola, the proper clef to write music is alto clef. If you have a part written in treble clef, you need to first figure out whether it's notated at pitch or in octave treble. Sometimes that's obvious: notated at pitch, there tend to be a lot of ledger lines at the bottom as the low C on the mandola is the space below the fourth ledger line. Octave treble clef is only one space shifted from alto clef: middle C is on the space above the middle line instead of the middle line.

Martin

[DougC]

After looking at C clefs and G clefs and what not. My eyes get a little blurry.

What works for me is that the concept of 'pitch' rather than 'note' seems to help.

Pitch, as indicated by an A at 440, or at 880 gives me and idea of how low or high the sound should be.

Also the indications of pitch as indicated on a piano like C4, C5 etc help to know about the sound that should be produced rather than a dot on a page.

One still has to interpret the marks on the page but this helps to rely on your ears.

[margora]

"For the CGDA mandola, the proper clef to write music is alto clef."

This is a little like saying that if one is writing music for the renaissance lute the proper clef is grand staff, which is what musicologists use, not players who expect French (or Italian) tab. Unless one is writing for hypothetical musicians, the proper clef is whatever is requested by the performer. For the CGDA mandola, in my experience, this could be alto clef, octave treble clef, or transposed (written to be read as if the mandola were a mandolin, but sounding as a mandola). If a CDGA mandola player is playing from original 20th century US scores, it is crucial to be able to read octave treble clef or transposed; hardly any of the so-called "Golden Age" repertoire has mandola parts in alto clef.

[Mark Gunter]

After looking at C clefs and G clefs and what not. My eyes get a little blurry.

Doug, I concur with the dizziness, and with the importance learning pitch (hard for my hearing as it is). Where the article really helped me, and maybe can help others, is in understanding first the idea behind the development of the clef symbols (treble as the letter G [or S for sol], bass as the letter F, and C clef as the letter c).

From there, it's easy to associate a note name on the staff with the clef symbol.

Widest point on treble clef always aligns with the note name G on the staff.
The note name F always appears on the staff between the dots of the bass clef.
The tiny "c" surrounded by large curlicues on the C clef is always aligned with middle C note on the staff.

Since I learned FACE in grade school, along with EGBDF (every good boy does fine) and GBDFA (good boys do fine always) I can learn the notes of the staves and puzzle out music. With practice, I can learn to sight read from whatever staves I wish to use, or not, but at least now I have the concept down as to what the clefs indicate.

[Martin Jonas]

"For the CGDA mandola, the proper clef to write music is alto clef."

This is a little like saying that if one is writing music for the renaissance lute the proper clef is grand staff, which is what musicologists use, not players who expect French (or Italian) tab. Unless one is writing for hypothetical musicians, the proper clef is whatever is requested by the performer. For the CGDA mandola, in my experience, this could be alto clef, octave treble clef, or transposed (written to be read as if the mandola were a mandolin, but sounding as a mandola). If a CDGA mandola player is playing from original 20th century US scores, it is crucial to be able to read octave treble clef or transposed; hardly any of the so-called "Golden Age" repertoire has mandola parts in alto clef.

I should expand on what I said -- it wasn't intended to be prescriptive or dogmatic, and in fact I don't read alto clef very well (but then I very rarely place CGDA mandola). The advantage of alto clef is that it (a) is part of the grand staff and (b) corresponds well to the range of the mandola and viola. That's true of neither the treble clef (which needs lots of lower ledger lines for most mandola music) nor the octave treble clef (which isn't a section of the grand staff -- all notes that are on a line in the grand staff are on a space in octave treble clef, and vice versa).

This is not necessarily a problem if it these clefs were making life easier for the performer, but they don't. Treble clef can be very awkward for CGDA mandola parts if there are too many ledger lines, and while octave treble clef looks nice and easy, it is just as hard to learn as alto clef for a mandolin player taking up the CGDA mandola: being able to read treble clef on mandolin is of little help as the fingering doesn't transfer, unlike on the GDAE mandola.

I agree that transposed notation is a pretty straightforward way for a mandolin player to read mandola parts. That was fairly common in the golden age, but has been virtually unheard of ever since.

All of this is academic, of course, when you have the score in electronic form: every player can transpose their part into whatever clef they fancy. When downloading Musescore files (which are fully editable), I tend to change viola parts (in alto clef) or 'cello parts (in bass clef) to octave treble clef to play on octave mandolin, tenor guitar or mandocello. This is a crutch and I would prefer to get better in reading alto and bass clef. If I were playing CGDA mandola or mandocello more often, I would make more of an to learn them.

Martin

[DougC]

"For the CGDA mandola, the proper clef to write music is alto clef."
If a CDGA mandola player is playing from original 20th century US scores, it is crucial to be able to read octave treble clef or transposed; hardly any of the so-called "Golden Age" repertoire has mandola parts in alto clef.

Can someone post an image of Octave treble clef? And explain the difference from treble clef. Is the only difference more ledger lines?

octave treble clef - Is this with the 8va?
(I forget which is appropriate. e.g. play an octave lower, or higher.)


A related issue is in playing an octave higher or lower from what is written. I notice that many skilled musicians do this easily.

[DougC]

Can someone post an image of Octave treble clef? And explain the difference from treble clef. Is the only difference more ledger lines?

octave treble clef - Is this with the 8va?
(I forget which is appropriate. e.g. play an octave lower, or higher.)

A related issue is in playing an octave higher or lower from what is written. I notice that many skilled musicians do this easily.

This is the correct indication to play the notes one octave below what is written. And another way to do the same is to write 8vb above the staff.

8va indicates an octave above. And attaching a number 8 to the top of the clef indicates notes above the octave written.

So if there is no error here, I think that it is starting to make sense. So here is a guess, (correct me if I'm wrong).

1. The 8vb is the octave treble clef and
2. it would be the same as playing the Alto Clef
3. And an A on the second space of the 8vb clef would sound as 220 hz instead of 440 hz
4. Right?

[Mark Gunter]

This is the correct indication to play the notes one octave below what is written. And another way to do the same is to write 8vb above the staff.

8va indicates an octave above. And attaching a number 8 to the top of the clef indicates notes above the octave written.

So if there is no error here, I think that it is starting to make sense. So here is a guess, (correct me if I'm wrong).

1. The 8vb is the octave treble clef and
2. it would be the same as playing the Alto Clef
3. And an A on the second space of the 8vb clef would sound as 220 hz instead of 440 hz
4. Right?

I may be wrong as well, but from what I understand, you are correct except for item #2. It is nearly the same as playing the Alto Clef, the difference is that in the Alto Clef middle C is on the center ledger line, whereas in the clef you've pictured, middle C would be on the space above the center line.

In the image I posted above showing all the clefs, compare the all'ottava bassa with the Alto Clef, middle C position.

[Pittsburgh Bill]

I have had this on my wall for years. Hope it helps.

This chart is very cool! Where do I get one. I have searched the internet to no avail.

[DougC]

This topic is a real motivation for me. I hope it is for others.

Some serious fussing with Finale notation software led me to develop a Clef Comparison Chart.

I wanted to add an Octave Mandolin but had trouble with the details. There was a European mandolin 'instrument component' (my terminology) with automatic staff and sound generating software. There was however, an Irish bouzouki component that I could have included. I think there was also mandocello information.

I wonder if others use notation software this way?

This technology helps to learn some complicated notions.

[Dacraw54]

I think I’ll go jump off a Clef...

[J.C. Bryant]

DougC, I like what you have done and I'm trying to get it all in my head. Dacraw54, I will jump with you. I heard a fellow say one time, just how I feel, "I don't really understand what I know"

[J.C. Bryant]

Another thought I have (understand ti could be from my confusion; If you had the capacity to change a treble clef song/tune (via tabledit, etc.) to something to make it better for CGDA instruments, what would you change it to?

[Louise NM]

Alto clef. It is best-suited to the range of a CGDA mandola.

[Jess L.]

... I wonder if others use notation software this way?

This technology helps to learn some complicated notions.

Absolutely, yes. I find notation software very useful, a great learning tool.

[bratsche]

I'm committing to learning also clef.

I've gotta remember that cute Freudian slip - thanks, J.C.!.

bratsche

[J.C. Bryant]

thanks Bratsche, "also" = alto, etc.

I've hear that in Missouri, "it is a sign of intelligence to know how to spell a word more than one way" .Blessings, J.C. Bryant

[Jess L.]

This chart is very cool! Where do I get one. I have searched the internet to no avail.

I made a kinda/sorta variant of that for myself, maybe other people will find it useful as well. Printable PDF file, has the usual MandolinCafe black preview but it's a normal file:



The whole thing fits on one printed page, and it covers a bunch of different instruments with notation and/or tab, although to save space it's the C major scale only (the white keys on the piano), so you'll need to supply your own sharps and flats. (Raise a note by one fret to make it sharp, lower a note by one fret to make it flat.) The chart has all of the following instruments in their most-common tunings:

• Piano. Use this as the reference for all the other instruments. The notes in all the other staves all align vertically with the piano notes, regardless of which clef a particular instrument uses.
  
  
• Mandolin. Standard notation + tab. (Tuning same as violin, of course.)
  
  
• Guitar (regular 6 string guitar in standard tuning). Tab only, to save space on the page (I've only ever met 1 person who could read standard notation for guitar anyway).
  
  
• Cello, and mandocello. Written in bass clef which I believe is standard for these instruments. Tab shown too.
  
  
• Bass (bass fiddle, and electric bass guitar, and apparently also most mandobass). Written in bass clef but it's played one octave lower than written. Tab shown too.
  
  
• Ukulele in the apparently-common GCEA re-entrant tuning. Tab only, to save space. From what I've been told, this should apply to soprano ukes, concert ukes, and tenor ukes. (But it would not apply to baritone ukuleles.)
  
  
• Octave mandolin (and of course also GDAE tenor guitar and GDAE tenor banjo). Written in "octave-treble clef" which I believe is standard for these instruments. Tab is shown also.
  
  
• Mandola, and viola, which seems to also apply to CGDA tenor guitar and CGDA tenor banjo. Shown in both octave-treble clef *and* alto clef, and tab for the fretted instruments too.
  
  
• 5-string banjo in "2C" tuning (gCGCD). Tab only, to save space and because that's what most people use anyway.
  
  
• 5-string banjo in "G" tuning (gDGBD), which as far as I know is still a common banjo tuning in bluegrass. Tab only.

Remember, even for the tab-only instruments (and also the weird-clef instruments), just look straight on up to the piano staff at the top of the page, to get the exact note.

I believe it's accurate but if you spot anything amiss, let me know and I will make corrections.

The reason I made the chart was to de-confuse myself about which octaves were used by which instruments. The need for that became quite obvious recently when I was trying to re-string my new mini electric guitar-like object (I took all the original strings off at once, mmm-hmm) and found that I couldn't bring any of the replacement strings up to pitch without them breaking, wha?? After quite some time of confusion, I somehow finally realized that I was trying to tune all the strings one octave too high! That's when I decided I needed to get busy and make a little note-chart showing all these instruments that I might want to deal with from time to time, showing what octaves their notes reside in as referenced to piano notes and other instruments that we have here. We don't have a piano but just knowing where each instrument's notes are on a piano staff, is the next best thing.

[Mark Gunter]

Hey hey

[Jess L.]

Hey hey

Patient prognosis good, they're all treble clefs, they haven't started mutating... yet.

But if he'd waited another day or so... no telling how many bass and alto clefs would have shown up... the mutant strains are much more resistant to standard treatments... Looks like he got to the doc just in time!

[DougC]

Or .....

The patient says to the doctor, "Fit as a fiddle. Right?"
And the doctor replies "Well actually you are only fit as a viola".