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  1. #1

    Default Ffcp

    Hello All,

    I have been studying the FFCP method for several months. I have made it up to the Arpeggios portion of the book and have been practicing those. Then it moves on to altered scales and what not and I am a bit lost. I have been doing some improvisation stuff with a guitarist strumming chords and seem to be stuck in the rut of transferring the scales up and down the fretboard not really being able to come up with too much with regard to melody. Any body have any suggestions other than to keep noodling or is there another method I need to begin to study to take things in a different direction. I have the 4 different patterns down pretty pat, definitely need some more time on the arpeggios, I am kind of running out of steam with it, the shear number of arpeggios is daunting. The altered scales have me a bit lost, the sound is very rigid with the scales, doesn't really have much feeling. Need some vision for moving forward. I didn't really know where else to post this, I looked at the social group on here and noticed it kind of lost momentum as well. I really enjoyed FFCP when I started it, kind of stagnated now, kind of just need to know there's a light at the end of the tunnel. Thanks.

  2. #2
    Registered User T.D.Nydn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ffcp

    The FFCP stuff is pretty much indespensable,so keep at it and keep improvising, but learn some tunes also....

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    Default Re: Ffcp

    Wish you hadn't told me if was indespensable, been playing mandolin 50+ years and I don't know what FFCP is. If I use it I don't know it.

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    Default Re: Ffcp

    I would say that FFCP is just a tool to help one gain familiarity and facility with the mandolin fretboard. It's purpose is to help one make music. So my suggestion would be to take some melodies that you know (or learn some new ones - zillions of fiddle tunes out there) and try applying the FFCP to those melodies. Learn them in different key. Play them using only the ring, middle and pinkie fingers. Play them in the original key, but up the neck - either an octave higher, or the same octave played on lower strings. This might you start hearing ways to improvise on those melodies.
    Mitch Russell

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    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ffcp

    Quote Originally Posted by jmmiller413 View Post
    I have been doing some improvisation stuff with a guitarist strumming chords and seem to be stuck in the rut of transferring the scales up and down the fretboard not really being able to come up with too much with regard to melody. Any body have any suggestions other than to keep noodling or is there another method I need to begin to study to take things in a different direction.
    In my opinion, the FFcP stuff will pay big dividends, so you should not abandon that. It will pay off and reward whatever sweat is involved to get all that under your fingers, whether it takes many months or years to do so.

    That said, in direct answer to your question culled from your post, yes ... there are other things you can do. Have you learned the major pentatonic scale pattern? That is a good place to start in helping you to improvise over songs in a major key. The pattern is very simple, moveable around the neck, and you can use your index finger to find the key note and simply noodle within that pattern.

    Here is an example of the pattern I'm referring to:
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    I used a Gb/F# example because I had the image to hand; it doesn't matter what key you're in, this is a moveable pattern. You play these notes with your index finger starting at third fret of the D string - the index finger on F# means you are playing in F#/Gb major. But you can place your index finger on any note and play the same pattern to move this to other keys.

    I've seen YouTube videos galore, many posted in this forum, that explain how to begin with this simple pentatonic pattern trick to get started improvising in major keys.

    This will only take you so far, and by no means should deter you from studying minor scales, pentatonics, arpeggios, major scales, pentatonics, arpeggios, FFcP, etc. But it is one quick answer to the question in your OP.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Default Re: Ffcp

    FFcP = four finger closed position

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    Default Re: Ffcp

    OK ... here is how I would approach where you are stuck. The entire FFCP major scale needs to worked within melodies that you are familiar with. This is to establish the bond between finger placement and the tone you hear in your head from the known melody. What interval is next in the tune from where your fingers currently are placed. Once you start getting a grip, hahaha, on that you can start to use the partial scales ie. pentatonic etc. in creating improvisations on the melodies that you have already worked up. Then moving on to new melodies as well. Partial scales , arpeggios blues scales not forgetting syncopation are simply tools. When you understand well enough how to use them in conjunction with your own ear and musical imagination you will be at the next level of playing what you hear in your head. Play on! R/
    I love hanging out with mandolin nerds . . . . . Thanks peeps ...

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    Default Re: Ffcp

    I can relate to the OP. I studied and practiced FFcP for sometime early in my mandolin journey and got little from it. It took a Joe Walsh lesson (unrelated to ffcp) on peghead to unlock how to I could apply FFcP in my playing. I cringe when folks tell someone starting out they should start out on FFcP. I think it's great but if you don't appreciate the why it can leave you wondering what's the fuss

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  15. #9

    Default Re: Ffcp

    Quote Originally Posted by UsuallyPickin View Post
    OK ... here is how I would approach where you are stuck. The entire FFCP major scale needs to worked within melodies that you are familiar with. This is to establish the bond between finger placement and the tone you hear in your head from the known melody. What interval is next in the tune from where your fingers currently are placed.
    So you mean within melodies that I know, I am not sure I get your meaning. So a good amount of tunes I know incorporate open strings, so you mean transposing the tones into one of the closed positions that seems to fit the tune intervals and playing them within the context of one of the patterns?
    Last edited by MikeEdgerton; Apr-06-2018 at 2:25pm. Reason: fixed quote syntax

  16. #10

    Default Re: Ffcp

    Thanks for the feedback everybody. I appreciate being able to talk about the situation with folks that understand. I got stuck like this when I played guitar, and I would like to take mandolin further than I did the guitar on the trail of improvisation. Thanks again.

  17. #11

    Default Re: Ffcp

    For every minute you spend practicing FFCP spend at least a minute using that pattern to say something musical. So, if you practice FFCP ascending thirds, make up a phrase that incorporates a part of that pattern.

    Then spend time using the patterns over changes, as slowly as necessary.

    The goal of FFCP should not be to become great at playing FFCP.

    Remember, improvisation is making stuff up on the fly. That is what you must practice.
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    Default Re: Ffcp

    So you mean within melodies that I know, I am not sure I get your meaning. So a good amount of tunes I know incorporate open strings, so you mean transposing the tones into one of the closed positions that seems to fit the tune intervals and playing them within the context of one of the patterns?
    That's it exactly. It helps you to move beyond a tune being "these notes, played in this order, on these strings".
    Mitch Russell

  20. #13

    Default Re: Ffcp

    Awesome, Thanks everybody for the help and support. I sat down last night and decided to slow everything down. I pulled out the Getting Into Jazz Mandolin book and instead of rote playing what was written on the page as fast and clear as possible I started to listen to what I was playing focusing on note resolution and pull on the different sections that I have been working on, and things started to click a bit more than they have been, got inspired again. I got in a hurry and focused on the mechanics and totally missed the why with regard to the music. I especially like the idea of taking the time to make music with the mechanics I have learned. Thank you all for your help.

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    Default Re: Ffcp

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    Here is an example of the pattern I'm referring to:
    Name:  Pentatonic_Pattern.jpg
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    If you play a pentatonic minor in the key of D#m, using Mark's pic of F#, all the notes will be the same as the F# scale. You can start anywhere, play the major pentatonic scale, and as long as you resolve on the D#m it works fine. A little less memorization and easier to think about pattern for me.
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

  22. #15

    Default Re: Ffcp

    If the question was, how do I get a melody to pop out of a scale? After one knows a whole bunch of scales and chords but yet one knows these are not melody. If this is the question, I always say it's kind of like making a canoe: Start with a tree and remove anything that isn't a canoe. Sometimes easier said than done, as some tunes stay closer to a scale than others. Also, when starting out, some keys are easier than others as well. As other's have said, scale training is to get the hands hooked up to the brain, in a sort of automatic way. Like a child saying their ABC's. A child will recite the alphabet like it's one big word or song. Do, Ra, Me, Fa, Sol, La, Ti, Do, etc. is the same, accept it's fewer words/tones. Lastly, there's no such thing as too simple a tune. Bile the Cabbage, Faded Love, Old Joe Clark, Wabash Cannonball, etc. Somebody's too simple tune, is somebody else's beloved tune.

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    Default Re: Ffcp

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandoplumb View Post
    Wish you hadn't told me if was indespensable, been playing mandolin 50+ years and I don't know what FFCP is. If I use it I don't know it.



    It's really just common sense dressed up in fancy terminology. In a diatonic context, in first position, it's simply "next (scale) note - next finger", a necessary corrective to the rigid "one finger-two frets" model (by which A would require all four fingers, Ab only three).

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    Chief Moderator/Shepherd Ted Eschliman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ffcp

    If there's anything I would have done differently in crafting this book, I would have changed the Altered Scales sections to something I call the Augmented 11th Scale. It's the same scale, same ingredients as far as notes, but instead of basing on the dominant (V), it would have taken a more familiar scale (Mixolydian), altered the 5th (+11), and started on the 2nd scale degree a half step lower.

    Convoluted? Yes, but heard in context, the ingredients to the scale would have made more sense in application. The Altered Scale is the same thing, but out of context, at first glance it feels like some random notes. Frankly, not that many jazz mandolinists I know even use it in its purest form, but I still think it's a powerful tool for improvising over the Dominant Chord (V7) within jazz. Outside this genre, not so much.

    G Augmented 11th: G, A, B, C#, D, E, F G
    C# Altered Scale: C#, D, E, F, G, A, B, C#

    First I'd say to the OP, skip any of the Altered Scale studies if you have no intention of diving deep with jazz. It's not worth the investment of time. As my professors would say, "This won't be on the test." However, anyone that wants to pursue the use of the same material with a different approach might want to read some of my later online materials. It makes more sense to me, and might to you:

    Cool sounds with a simple new scale
    and
    Fresh improv; spicing up your V7 chords
    and
    Augmented 11th FFcP
    Ted Eschliman

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  26. #18
    Registered User T.D.Nydn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ffcp

    Well,there's always the "Holdsworth minor" : 1 2 b3 4 b5 5 b6 b7 7....

  27. #19

    Default Re: Ffcp

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph johansson View Post
    It's really just common sense dressed up in fancy terminology. In a diatonic context, in first position, it's simply "next (scale) note - next finger", a necessary corrective to the rigid "one finger-two frets" model (by which A would require all four fingers, Ab only three).
    If you are using open strings (first position?), then you are NOT using FFCP. FFCP is the technique of using closed (moveable, no-open strings) fingerings.

  28. #20
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    Default Re: Ffcp

    While going through the Dorian(II) exercises I found it easier to think about the Major key that’s one tone below. So for example if you want to play in E dorian, you could begin with the FIRST finger on the E, third string, 2nd fret and play the pattern up to the FOURTH finger E on 2nd string 7th fret. BUT E dorian uses the same notes as D major because Dorian means the 2nd. So the pattern itself would be as though you begin the scale with FOURTH finger on D 4th string 7 fret and play the pattern of the D major scale.
    In that way, G Lydian(IV) -which means the scale that has G as it’s fourth ie. D major- would be relatively easy to work out, just begin on G using the D major pattern. Then locating chord tones would be the arpeggio exercises for D major.
    I found it easier to think of it like that, but in a visual, tactile sense.

  29. #21

    Default Re: Ffcp

    Quote Originally Posted by David L View Post
    If you are using open strings (first position?), then you are NOT using FFCP. FFCP is the technique of using closed (moveable, no-open strings) fingerings.
    By definition, no. But if one extrapolates one's first/index finger for the nut, then these formations can be used in 1st position. Take it a step further, there is a half position, and two other positions North of 1st. IOW, Because of the 5th tuning, the patterns start at the nut and progress South one fret at a time theoretically. Granted one must know what open string(s) aren't part of the formation, and not play them. This is really how see a fingerboard.

  30. #22

    Default Re: Ffcp

    Thank you all for your input. Thanks Ted for chiming in. Its pretty awesome to be a member of a community where the author of the book your working on adds input to a question. I greatly appreciate all of your time. I have come to the conclusion I need to involve my brain and ears to the process of working on this method. I have the physical part of the fingerings down pretty well, but I need to move beyond that.

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    Default Re: Ffcp

    Quote Originally Posted by atsunrise View Post
    While going through the Dorian(II) exercises I found it easier to think about the Major key that’s one tone below. So for example if you want to play in E dorian, you could begin with the FIRST finger on the E, third string, 2nd fret and play the pattern up to the FOURTH finger E on 2nd string 7th fret. BUT E dorian uses the same notes as D major because Dorian means the 2nd. So the pattern itself would be as though you begin the scale with FOURTH finger on D 4th string 7 fret and play the pattern of the D major scale. In that way, G Lydian(IV) -which means the scale that has G as it’s fourth ie. D major- would be relatively easy to work out, just begin on G using the D major pattern. Then locating chord tones would be the arpeggio exercises for D major.I found it easier to think of it like that, but in a visual, tactile sense.
    How does all this help you with the melody. I start with with the melody and add what fills it out.

  32. #24

    Default Re: Ffcp

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandoplumb View Post
    How does all this help you with the melody. I start with with the melody and add what fills it out.
    Filling out the melody is one way to do it, but many genres of Jazz would consider it restrictive.
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  33. #25
    Registered User Simon DS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ffcp

    Ted’s FFcP scales system help to restrict the options that my fingers have, so a melody in C harmonic minor -it sounds a bit gypsy-like, is easier for me to remember, especially if someone wants to sing it now in F# harmonic minor.
    The altered scale, and jazz generally I find difficult to understand, but it’s a learning process. Whatever works for you.

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