Expensive mandolins

[Dave Hanson]

I guess some of us are beyond help - I played a Gibson F-9 for a while, and sounded horrible.

Maybe I'll go tune up my ukulele . . . .

I tried out 2 F9s before I bought one, both sounded like cheap far eastern plywood boxes, the one I bought was the cheapest of the 3 and it sounds fabulous.

Dave H

[MikeZito]

I tried out 2 F9s before I bought one, both sounded like cheap far eastern plywood boxes, the one I bought was the cheapest of the 3 and it sounds fabulous.

So it wasn't just me? Whew! The F-9 that I got was a terrible mandolin; it sounded no better than my old Savannah and/or Rogue mandolins, and no matter how many bridge adjustments I made, it played like a beast . . . and that was after a set-up from one of the highly-respected Cafe sponsors.

Okay, I'll put the ukulele away now . . . .

[rnjl]

I have two thoughts. The first is that there's always a law of diminishing returns: usually, a luthier made mandolin will sound much
better than a factory-made Pacific rim plywood job- the lowest price Weber is usually much better than a good Kentucky at half the price- but at some point, the improvements are subtle. A Weber sounds twice as good as a Kentucky but 6K Weber doesn't sound twice as good as a 3K Weber. I learned this, by the way, drinking whiskey: $20-25 dollar whiskey is MUCH better than $12 whiskey, but $50 whiskey is, to me, only somewhat better than $25 bottles.

The other thought is that an $6-8K mandolin is only expensive compared to . . most other mandolins but not lots of other things that Americans buy. An Acura gets you to work exactly like a Civic does, but lots of people spend $10 or $15K extra on a new car that is basically a fancy box around the same engine as a cheaper car- and don't get me started on people who spend $35 or 40K on a new SUV to go three miles to work in the suburbs.

A $6K mandolin is the same price as some week-long vacations, a few month's mortgage on a beach house, a few nice $1.5K guns, or 3.5 years of five-dollar lattes. Not saying everybody buys those things, but lots of Americans do.

It's odd that we think it's odd that some people like to spend money on nice instruments when lots of other folks spend much more on other things that I'm guessing don't bring as much pleasure, but like Pope Francis, who am I to judge?

There IS a bias in our community against people who can't play so good (like me) having fancy instruments beyond our talent- but nobody ever says that about cars or boats or fishing rods, do they?

[DavidKOS]

In the classical/orchestral world, it is not unusual for someone to get a position in an orchestra because of the quality of their instrument.

They have to be able to PLAY it, though. At that pro level.

[DavidKOS]

There IS a bias in our community against people who can't play so good (like me) having fancy instruments beyond our talent- but nobody ever says that about cars or boats or fishing rods, do they?

I have no such bias!

But as a working pro, I choose the best sounding cheapest gear so I can begin making money, not paying off gear, from gigs.

[stevedenver]

I have two thoughts. The first is that there's always a law of diminishing returns: usually, a luthier made mandolin will sound much
better than a factory-made Pacific rim plywood job- the lowest price Weber is usually much better than a good Kentucky at half the price- but at some point, the improvements are subtle. A Weber sounds twice as good as a Kentucky but 6K Weber doesn't sound twice as good as a 3K Weber. I learned this, by the way, drinking whiskey: $20-25 dollar whiskey is MUCH better than $12 whiskey, but $50 whiskey is, to me, only somewhat better than $25 bottles.

The other thought is that an $6-8K mandolin is only expensive compared to . . most other mandolins but not lots of other things that Americans buy. An Acura gets you to work exactly like a Civic does, but lots of people spend $10 or $15K extra on a new car that is basically a fancy box around the same engine as a cheaper car- and don't get me started on people who spend $35 or 40K on a new SUV to go three miles to work in the suburbs.

A $6K mandolin is the same price as some week-long vacations, a few month's mortgage on a beach house, a few nice $1.5K guns, or 3.5 years of five-dollar lattes. Not saying everybody buys those things, but lots of Americans do.

It's odd that we think it's odd that some people like to spend money on nice instruments when lots of other folks spend much more on other things that I'm guessing don't bring as much pleasure, but like Pope Francis, who am I to judge?

There IS a bias in our community against people who can't play so good (like me) having fancy instruments beyond our talent- but nobody ever says that about cars or boats or fishing rods, do they?

Well said.
Who buys an M5 BMW, Porscher, etc., only a super driver?
An $18M home?
Diamond encrusted Rolex?

Its about personal values, and, wherewithal.

And diminishing returns or not, they can be real, and are always a personal value judgement.

All the judgement stuff from others....doesnt matter, imnsho.

Simply, theres always someone who has less money, and someone who has more, and, how they chose to spend it, thats about it.

Thats who buys expensive instruments...someone that wants one and is willing to pay for it without regretting the cost. And can.

I am retired, play daily, play in two gigging hack bands, i am devoted to growth, am competant , but not superb...i own 2 such priced mandos, 2 such priced banjos, and 2 such guitars ( both due to market value increase over forty years). And, gig with them all. They make me very very happy, everyday, every time i look at them, every time i hear them.

I well understand id be likely as happy with way less, as, its about the music, not just the axe. But, it does have an interplay.

$12.00 whisky.....???? No such thing. Lol.

[rnjl]

Replying to DavidKos- right, if I buy a mandolin, it's for pleasure, if you buy one, it's for work. That does make a difference in how we'd approach things.

It's also true that in every area of life, some people are gearheads, and some aren't. I like bicycles and put a lot of thought into what
kind of gears and brakes I wanted in a commuting bike. Most people, including lots of folks who do very athletic rides, just go into a shop and buy the cheapest thing that feels OK.

[DavidKOS]

Replying to DavidKos- right, if I buy a mandolin, it's for pleasure, if you buy one, it's for work. That does make a difference in how we'd approach things.

Quite right - and if you get more pleasure from your expensive mandolin, good, even more fun.

[Denny Gies]

Back in 1993 I was fortunate enough to be able to buy a Randy Wood F 5. It was expensive back then but I have never regretted a single moment since the purchase.

[Alex Orr]

I think Mike answered this question earlier. The people who buy them are people who have the money to buy them and enjoy buying and playing them. I was at a party a couple of years back at an acquaintance's place in a wealthier suburb of DC. There were a ton of pickers there and among them were an accountant and a lawyer with Gilchrists. The mandos were actually two numbers apart and these two guys, who'd never met, were thrilled about that. Turns out they both REALLY like Gilchrists and both had a second Gilchrist at home. So, who buys two $12,000 mandolins? Successful lawyers and accountants in one of the wealthier suburbs in America, among others.

BTW, they were both very nice guys and let anyone who wanted to play their Gilchrists. They also had no air of condescension about them in regards to playing such high-end instruments. If anything one of the guys was a bit embarrassed at how rusty his playing had gotten over the last couple of months and apologized more than once for forgetting a few fiddle tunes we called. The three of us jammed on fiddle tunes for about 45 minutes in a three-mando "cirlce" and we passed around our mandos freely, with each guy also taking turns with my Brentrup, and though obviously different in tone, they both repeatedly said it easily sounded as good as their Gils, and I kind've have to agree. Anyway, I just wanted to add that to also counter the frequent refrain around here that guys with really expensive mandolins are usually just condescending and obnoxious towards anyone with a less expensive instruments - honestly, I've rarely seen that myself.

[rnjl]

Alex, I agree, I've never seen someone with a nice guitar or mandolin be visibly or verbally condescending to someone with a lesser box. I've seen the reverse kind of attitude, which is, if you have a Gil (or a high-end Martin, or Collings etc) you'd better be able to play that thing. Much more often in jams I've seen guys (usually guys) with nice mandolin or guitars warmly welcome a newbie
with an imported instrument, but make a quiet snide remark about the guy (always a guy) with a very nice instrument who can't play very well.

I often ride on a rail trail near my house and when a middle age guy on a nice bike (um, like me, sometimes) is huffing along, some guys (always guys) riding old beaters will make a point of speeding up and racing past them as if to say, it ain't the bike, dude. I still like my disc brakes, though, and I'm never going back to calipers.

[Willie Poole]

In past years I have found that SOME pickers, not all, with an expensive instrument are snobbish...One Cafe member comes to mind, He was suppose to be coming to the area where I live so I invited him to come to my house so we could meet and play a few tunes, he asked if I owned a Loar signed mandolin and when I told him I didn`t he said he didn`t think he would make a stop at my house...

At a picking party one evening I was playing an Asian made Aria and a fellow there had a `23 Loar and he was as proud as a peacock about it and flaunted it all around and let others play it and then quite a few people said that it didn`t sound any better than my $195 Aria so the Loar owner put his in the case and stormed out.....

There is also the case where sporting equipment falls into the same category, I once paid close to $600 for a set of professional golf clubs and I didn`t play any better than I did with the cheaper set of clubs, a $200 driver was suppose to get me an extra 10 yds but my $50 one went the same distance, of course when I mentioned this to other golfers they said I didn`t have the ability that was needed to get that extra distance... Same with mandolins I guess, an expensive mandolin most likely won`t make you sound any better if you don`t have the ability to play it to its potential...AND I have found a few Kentucky`s that sound as well or better than some Webers but again it is all subjective as to what we want to start with...My self I have owned four Gibson made mandolins and have sold every one of them when I found something I thought sounded better, true the Gibson`s may be worth more in days to come but I wanted something that sounded good right now, as George Allen once said when he coached the Redskins, "The future is now"....

Willie

[peterleyenaar]

I have never experienced snobbism , during the past 5 years hosting monthly Saturday jams, people came to the jam with all kinds of instruments , inexpensive ones, really nice ones, not many, but some very expensive ones, all a person had to do was look intently at someones instrument and he or she would be offered to play it.
Overall the jams were a great experience, (sometimes 5 showing up, sometimes 30 and everything in between, sometimes hard to get them out of the house by 2:30 in the morning, just one more ))

[Br1ck]

Personally, I'm more comfortable with more economical instruments. There's just something elitists about overly priced stuff that rubs me the wrong way. I just can't see a $10,000 mandolin being 200 times better than a $500 one.Some better, yes, but come on. Besides, I'll never have the chops to merit thst kind of expenditure. No, I'm happy with my trusty Rover, and feel no need to lust after something I could never afford anyway.

Oops, typo. I meant 20.
Thanks, Dave.

There is no one here claiming that a $10,000 instrument is 20 times better, rathere the opposite. A $300 Kentucky is twice as good as a Rogue, a Weber 50% better than that, an Ellis 10% better than that, and a Gilchrist 5% better than that. Rough aproximations, please don't take it literally. Suffice to say there are folks who are willing to pay significant amounts of money for incremental improvements. That doesn't make them anything other than passionate and able.

Please don't delude yourself that because you can't afford something, you don't want it. I'd buy an Ellis or some such in a heartbeat. I'd buy a restored 55 Ford truck too. Well life is a bitch ain't it?

[Jeff Mando]

There is elitism in any hobby. Some people can afford the best and feel it is worth the money. Others can't. Simple. In our hobby both can play and enjoy music.

Rich people don't call $1200 shoes, "my $1200 shoes" -- they are simply shoes. Sure, there is pride of ownership with certain brands or makers.....

When I worked at a vintage guitar shop, Billy Gibbons came in and I was excited to show him a vintage $25K Fender Stratocaster that we just got in. He barely glanced at it and said something to the effect, why would I buy that for $25K when I have a room full of them I bought when they were $400 each! So, even if you have the money, you might not need it.

I agree with playing the best you can afford. I repair a lot of instruments in all price ranges and usually you can tell with the first chord, if it is a quality instrument.

[MikeZito]

When I worked at a vintage guitar shop, Billy Gibbons came in and I was excited to show him a vintage $25K Fender Stratocaster that we just got in. He barely glanced at it and said something to the effect, why would I buy that for $25K when I have a room full of them I bought when they were $400 each!

Great answer!

[Roger Adams]

Life is short; Eat off the good china, never buy cheap whiskey, and play a Gibson F5L. When you die, they shovel dirt in your face and sell your stuff at a garage sale.....

[lowtone2]

There is elitism in any hobby. Some people can afford the best and feel it is worth the money. Others can't. Simple. In our hobby both can play and enjoy music.

Rich people don't call $1200 shoes, "my $1200 shoes" -- they are simply shoes. Sure, there is pride of ownership with certain brands or makers.....

When I worked at a vintage guitar shop, Billy Gibbons came in and I was excited to show him a vintage $25K Fender Stratocaster that we just got in. He barely glanced at it and said something to the effect, why would I buy that for $25K when I have a room full of them I bought when they were $400 each! So, even if you have the money, you might not need it.

I agree with playing the best you can afford. I repair a lot of instruments in all price ranges and usually you can tell with the first chord, if it is a quality instrument.

Joe Bonamassa has to have everything!

I went to a camp, and had by far the cheapest instrument there with my $900 Kentucky. Most had builder instruments, and a few with good shop-made mandolins were apologetic about it-apologizing for their Collings. The vibe I got was that if you play something like a Kentucky, you probably are not sufficiently committed. Or maybe it was because I'm a crappy player?

[roysboy]

Life is short; Eat off the good china, never buy cheap whiskey, and play a Gibson F5L. When you die, they shovel dirt in your face and sell your stuff at a garage sale.....

Gees Grizzly . This is .............encouraging ?

[Folkmusician.com]

I have met plenty of snobs at random jams, but it doesn't directly correlate to instrument value. There is no way to generalize that at all. Putting people down when their playing isn't worthy of the top notch instrument they own is just as bad as looking down on a lower priced instrument. There is always going to be people on both sides.

Now if someone owns a $15000 mandolin, can't play, AND has an attitude, yeah, then they are fair game to make fun of.

[Dave Martin]

Echoing some of the comments above --

I just purchased the most expensive instrument I have ever owned, even adjusting for inflation. But first the story (related on another thread). My grandfather died about 1986. I received his Rolex. It had been in a safety deposit box until January, when I looked at it in an annual inventory, and thought I could turn it into a mandolin that would let me remember him (and his son, my father) daily. I looked at a few, and ordered and returned one. I then looked at a Collings MT2-O in ivory finish that somehow reminded me of his taste in things -- good quality, classic looks, somewhat unique. Bill Collings was a buddy in the seventies. As the reader probably knows, Bill passed away last year. So now, I daily remember my grandfather and dad, and also my old friend.

I doubt I would have purchased an instrument at that level -- $4100 a perfectly even trade for the Rolex -- without that connection. While I joke about my wife, and her comments on instrument acquisition, she has never objected to any expense on music "stuff" only about "and where are we going to store that when you are not playing it?," a fair question in some of our residences. I just did not see the added value from the more expensive instruments. My ears aren't getting any better, so I figured I was ok with good quality player level axes. I played Carvin and good Epiphone bass, Martin and Rainsong guitars, and a Breedlove mandolin.

I really, really, like the Collings. I plays like warm butter, sounds complex and clear simultaneously, and seems to project more than other ovals. It was about 4x more than my Breedlove (which I still like a lot), about double the Martin and Rainsong guitars.

So, in my opinion, this tells me that the last (pick a number) 20% of instrument quality comes at a high marginal cost. CAD/CAM has improved manufacturing to the point where a $500 instrument can play as much in tune as a $5000 instrument. That was not the case 50+ years ago when I started with guitars. Others above have noted this high marginal cost/value relationship.

I don't know if this taste of *something* will lead to other higher end instruments. I don't have any more watches in the safety deposit box, and while our retirement is comfortable, I doubt a Gilchrist is in my future -- though I must say, if I really wanted it my wife would help me find a way.

Finally, I thought pretty hard about a $4K used Gibson, there are some nice ones out there, but my grandfather did not buy second hand. Before any flames, please remember this purchase rang more bells than the acquisition of another instrument.

Thanks for reading.

[pops1]

I have been a gigging musician most of my adult life. As others I play what I can afford. The more you enjoy what you play the greater pleasure you have when you play it. If it costs $50 or $5000 if it brings you joy that is the important part. 40 or more years ago I played guitar and was able to get a 1924 028K Martin. Took all the money both of us had made on the road for the last few days playing more than one gig a day and my performing guitar. Played it the rest of the time I played guitar. On to mandolins I have not been able to afford to just buy an expensive mandolin outright, but I can make payments on it. I prefer to drive a junk car and make payments on an instrument. I have played my Brentrup for at least 10 years and love it more today than when I bought it. It is an A model, I couldn't afford an F model, fortunately I like A's. As far as worrying about losing something you can't afford to lose so playing something less than what might give you joy, I had all my instruments and equipment insured. Cost $7 per $1000 of value. So $10,000 worth of equipment and instruments would be $100 a year, less than $10 a month. I wasn't concerned someone would steel my precious instruments, I kept very good watch on them, but should and accident or something terrible happen I would be able to replace them at least with decent equipment and keep my income coming in. Playing as a job is hard work and you should be able to enjoy not only playing for people and playing music, but enjoy what you are playing on.

[JEStanek]

Given the effort I put into it and my abilities (a function of the effort I put in) I'm completely satisfied with my instruments. I sound like me if I'm on my Eastman or on the Loar signed F5 I got to plink once. My music making goals are more modest. That said, all these small shop builders earning their meals and homes building mandolins need buyers. Keep buying!

Jamie

[jimmy powells]

The same argument can be made for cars or other things. Some people have disposable income and want to own a 'name'. Jaguar car comes to mind.There are a lot of instruments advertised at these high prices but still turn up advertised again weeks/months later so you don't sell an £8000 high end instrument every day or every week or month.
A fool and his money are easily parted and believe me, I've parted with a big stash over the last 50 years but had some great fun with it. When a dealer says that their £2000 instrument is just the most amazing and 'has everything' after you've enquired why it is 5 times the price of a decent £400 instrument, what do they say is the reason why another one is £8000 or £10,000. Truth is it is worth what someone is prepared t pay and we all have weak moments and these instruments do get bought but, as I say, not every day.
JimmyP
UK

[Br1ck]

I've played string instruments for a good many years now, and very well know when i have an instrument that is special to me in my hands. I can play any number of quality instruments and realize they are very nice, then put them down after ten minutes. Now once in a very long while, thank goodness, I look at the clock and two hours have gone by. That is when I know something is special to me.

Now I know this would happen more often if I played instruments I know are not in my price comfort zone. And what does it for me might not do it for you. For instance my favorite instrument is a 65 Epiphone Texan. Adjustable bridge, skinny neck and all, many would not even pick one up to try. I paid top dollar retail for it. It was three hours before I checked my watch.

I do hope many of the high dollar mandolins get played and owners have that experience and buy based on that, but I know this is not always possible.

A friend was considering an OM sized Collings guitar for $6000 online. He called me up to ask for advice. I told him it was undoubtedly a fine guitar, but couldn't say if the one hanging next to it at a fine dealer wouldn't be better.

I have never been one to even consider that you need a level of expertise to deserve an instrument. I can't hardly cook a wit, but enjoy a $100 fry pan just fine. I always try to buy at least one quality level above my capability on anything. Never been disappointed.