In a jam secession I can’t believe you couldn’t have sang it in F or G. If it was a performance it would have been learned and practiced, and should be in key that absolutely suits singer but a jam is spur of the moment and really just for fun
In a jam secession I can’t believe you couldn’t have sang it in F or G. If it was a performance it would have been learned and practiced, and should be in key that absolutely suits singer but a jam is spur of the moment and really just for fun
Just change real estate when jamming in lesser visited keys and take chord shapes up the neck. True, it limits open string options, but 1-4-5 can go anywhere.
Girouard A
Silverangel A
Eastman 615
A little OT, but there was a great late 18thC Scottish fiddle composer called William Marshall who wrote a good number of tunes in Bb and Eb. One day he was asked "Maister Marshall, why d'ye write tunes in sic hard keys?" "Och" replies William, "ah dinna write tunes for bunglers". I think he was saying "Beacuase I can".
There is a recently published book about a Minnesota based Norwegian American fiddler, his tune book has numerous tunes in B flat, E flat, E major and even a waltz that goes to D flat. It's presumed he did it to show off technique.
For those that care the book is "Ole Hendricks & his tunebook" by Amy Shaw published by University of Wisconsin Press.
Brentrup Model 23, Boeh A5 #37, Gibson A Jr., Flatiron 1N, Coombe Classical flattop, Strad-O-Lin
https://www.facebook.com/LauluAika/
https://www.lauluaika.com/
https://www.facebook.com/Longtine-Am...14404553312723
I've come late to this thread, so I'm sure it's been mentioned already, but I thought one reason for B in Bluegrass was that otherwise it would just be Luegrass. OK, l'll get my coat.
Another reason would be that in first position it contains some handy blues notes on the open strings.
Kinda like E for guitarists.
Bb is popular for e.g fiddle tunes such as Northumbrian hornpipes, where again commonly used accidentals are on the open strings.
So while it's good to master all keys in closed positions, B and Bb have some advantages in open positions too.
Bren
I'm a horn player so pretty comfortable in those flat keys...on saxophone and bass. Increasingly, I see big band charts in sharp keys and I don't get it? Why not just stick with the easy keys?
On mandolin it's not that hard to play different keys in closed positions, but what's cool to me is playing those keys in first position using open strings when available, not that I'm adept at that. You really get different colors. Jody Stecher demonstrated that on an old VHS instruction tape I have. Very striking stuff. I wonder if that is available as a download now? Highly recommended, from what I remember...
Lowtone2: correct me if I am wrong but if you read in sheet music in C major on a Bb instrument then you are actually playing in Bb or Eb for an Eb horn? So no sharps or flats? But we would be playing in 2 flats or three on our instruments. It is really a matter of what you are used to. Or are you talking about transposing on the fly?
i have been exploring Bb and F tunes on fiddle and mandolin and is fine. Getting used to reading in those keys as well. Just need to find tunes in E and B for the sharp end and Eb and Ab and the requisite minor keys.
Jim
My Stream on Soundcloud
19th Century Tunes
Playing lately:
1924 Gibson A4 - 2018 Campanella A-5 - 2007 Brentrup A4C - 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin - Huss & Dalton DS - 1923 Gibson A2 black snakehead - '83 Flatiron A5-2 - 1939 Gibson L-00 - 1936 Epiphone Deluxe - 1928 Gibson L-5 - ca. 1890s Fairbanks Senator Banjo - ca. 1923 Vega Style M tenor banjo - ca. 1920 Weymann Style 25 Mandolin-Banjo - National RM-1
I do transpose on the fly, but big-band charts are scored for the different keys the horns are written in. A chart in Eb concert would be written in the key of C for me on barisax, and F for the tenor and trumpets. Bones read bass clef.
So a chart in concert C is written in A for me and the alto players, and D for the tenor and trumpets. Not really a big deal.
Harder is playing in a rock or blues horns section and they do everything in E or A. Db and Gb for me on baritone, or Gb and B for tenor. For some reason, most tenor players think of it as F# rather than Gb.
I get my fake books in C. Transposing is not hard, just takes practice. Did i answer your question?
Yes you did answer my questions. I guess I also wonder how this all came about. I know there are melody saxes but those are pretty much obsolete perhaps for their not useful range. We’re all these brass instruments designed apart from the strings and keyboards. Adolph Sax designed his instruments in the 19th century. This article on transposing instruments helps explains a lot to me: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transposing_instrument
Jim
My Stream on Soundcloud
19th Century Tunes
Playing lately:
1924 Gibson A4 - 2018 Campanella A-5 - 2007 Brentrup A4C - 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin - Huss & Dalton DS - 1923 Gibson A2 black snakehead - '83 Flatiron A5-2 - 1939 Gibson L-00 - 1936 Epiphone Deluxe - 1928 Gibson L-5 - ca. 1890s Fairbanks Senator Banjo - ca. 1923 Vega Style M tenor banjo - ca. 1920 Weymann Style 25 Mandolin-Banjo - National RM-1
There's a recent custom in which guitarists tune their instruments down a half-step. So the key of E, which has always been common for them, becomes Eb - rather than oppose Eb, they seek it. I've never gotten a satisfactory explanation for this. If anyone has one I'd love to hear it.
But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller
Furthering Mandolin Consciousness
Finders Keepers, my duo with the astoundingly talented and versatile Patti Rothberg. Our EP is finally done, and available! PM me, while they last!
For me it's all about the sound. Keys "sound" different to me and it's not just pitch, it's more like different colors. Chords are the same, Gm isn't just Dm at a different pitch, it has it's own character. To cite an example maybe Tennessee Waltz played in G (which I like) has a different feel than played in D which is more common I think. Play New Camptown Races in anything other than Bb and hear the difference. Or Billy in the Lowground in something other than C. It's weird.
We few, we happy few.
This was a prevalent belief in classical music, beginning in the Baroque Period, I think. Different emotional states were ascribed to each key. I've seen lists of them. with detailed descriptions. And not surprisingly, there was considerable inconsistency.
According to Christian Schubart, in his "Ideen zu einer Aesthetik der Tonkunst" from 1806:
"B♭ Major
Cheerful love, clear conscience, hope aspiration for a better world.
"B Major
Strongly coloured, announcing wild passions, composed from the most glaring coulors. Anger, rage, jealousy, fury, despair and every burden of the heart lies in its sphere."
From Charpentier's Regles de Composition ca. 1682:
B major: harsh and plaintive
Bb major: magnificent and joyful
His list is a bit suspect, as he determines both G major and G minor to be "serious and magnificent."
https://wmich.edu/mus-theo/courses/keys.html
https://ledgernote.com/blog/interest...tics-emotions/
But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller
Furthering Mandolin Consciousness
Finders Keepers, my duo with the astoundingly talented and versatile Patti Rothberg. Our EP is finally done, and available! PM me, while they last!
It got around the guitar community that SRV tuned down a half step. He tuned down to lower the string tension because of using heavier gauge strings. So all the SRV wannabees had to do the same thinking they'd sound like their hero. I sometimes tune my acoustic down a whole step making the key of E become D for a lower tonal sound. The great jazz guitarist Kenny Poole would tune his guitar down up to 3 whole steps as he was a master at playing bass lines in addition to his chord melody
Thanks. Interesting. I recently ran into something with SRV, while recording a take on his "Texas Flood" with lyrics reworked to address the recent arctic blast the state and surrounding area suffered - he'd recorded it in F#. That seemed weird, as E is a big favorite among blues guitarists - in fact, that's how I played it in my "Texas Snow." Now I'm thinking, he was actually playing in G, just down a half step to F#.
But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller
Furthering Mandolin Consciousness
Finders Keepers, my duo with the astoundingly talented and versatile Patti Rothberg. Our EP is finally done, and available! PM me, while they last!
Back in 1979 I busked with a guitarist who used a nylon string guitar tuned down two or three steps.
He was normally a strat-playing Hendrix fan in bands but reckoned that the slack-tuned acoustic guitar was easier on his fingers for long busking sessions.
I was just strumming along mostly and playing simple melodic lines, but even so it was a good challenge to match keys. It was a challenge to figure out what they were!
Bren
Northfield F5M #268, AT02 #7
Jim
My Stream on Soundcloud
19th Century Tunes
Playing lately:
1924 Gibson A4 - 2018 Campanella A-5 - 2007 Brentrup A4C - 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin - Huss & Dalton DS - 1923 Gibson A2 black snakehead - '83 Flatiron A5-2 - 1939 Gibson L-00 - 1936 Epiphone Deluxe - 1928 Gibson L-5 - ca. 1890s Fairbanks Senator Banjo - ca. 1923 Vega Style M tenor banjo - ca. 1920 Weymann Style 25 Mandolin-Banjo - National RM-1
I've heard Dick Dale used piano strings, so he may not be the best person to use as an example.
Then again, confirming that rumor has been difficult. I'm seeing references to very thick strings, but nothing about whether they were piano strings. Nor low tuning, for that matter. Fun reads, though ... And the in-depth analysis of his rig is fascinating. He sure followed his own path.
https://www.fender.com/articles/arti...ick-dale-facts
https://surfguitar101.com/forums/top...page=1#p385251
But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller
Furthering Mandolin Consciousness
Finders Keepers, my duo with the astoundingly talented and versatile Patti Rothberg. Our EP is finally done, and available! PM me, while they last!
I once started noodling a bit on TW in D, but realized I had far too many songs in that key. So I switched to F, with lots of figures and slides along the strings, rather than across them. I subsequently worked that into a medley: Tennessee Waltz in F, Missouri Waltz in D, and Kentucky Waltz in Eb. Only thing missing is a waltz in G to cover the three most common modulations.
I'm partial to the key of Eb; when I began playing the guitar more than 60 years ago I used a lot of sheet music for the piano and Eb is probably the most common sheet music key.
One tune I learned from sheet music about that time was Georgia On My Mind. The printed key is F, and playing the verse (which nobody else does) I found open A and D useful as bass notes (but I would have liked an open G as well). Omitting the verse (or the melody altogether) I've found that Eb works best. Another song that cries out for the key of Eb is ain't Misbehavin'. For some strange reason the Hot Club Quintet did it in D.
Another song I really love playing in Eb is Min Soldat, (The Shrine of St. Cecilia) a Swedish WWII song (the singer loves her soldier boyfriend in spite of his shabby appearance). It was recorded a couple of years ago by tenor saxophonist Scott Hamilton with a Swedish-Danish ensemble.
About 10 years ago I wanted to work up an arrangement of Only You but realized I would have to include too much tremolo. So I wrote a contrafact, in Eb, over its changes (Only You -> Uniquely Determined -> ) Determination, a somewhat boppish title. Only then did I realize that the changes were almost the same as There Will Never Be Another You.
The main reason is so that horn players don't have to read ledger lines so much. The approximate center of the horn's range is centered on the staff. The same is true for double bass, which actually sounds an octave lower than written. Most guitar music is also written an octave up.
Key of B used to frustrate me. Then this past year I found an approach that uses a C form starting at B on the low G string. Started experimenting with a blues kind of scale that goes B - C# - D - Eb - E - F# - G# - A - B. I found a way to do a kind of Jimmy Martin G run that is B - D - Eb - F# - G# - B. It may not be a traditional mandolin approach, but it helped me get comfortable with that scale up and down the neck using that form.
For key of Bb I just chose an instrumental tune to focus on to learn the scale and get comfortable. It was New Camptown from Wake Frankfield Once I got comfortable with that I'd start learning melodies to vocal songs in Bb, mostly Stanley Brothers like Nobody's Love is Like Mine. So far it's helped pretty well. I'd like to try more in Ab and Eb with a similar exercise.
Washburn Americana M118SWK
Keith Coleman custom 3 point w/ oval
Schwab 5-string electric #79
Bookmarks