I play along with (internet) radio a lot, and most jazz programming does not take me past Bb most of the time, with some Eb thrown in. Lots of F major, plenty of C. I find some rock and blues guitarists like to play in Jimi Hendrix Eb, that is with the guitars tuned down a half step. (Can't they just use lighter strings?)
The stream that carries Folk Alley gives me a lot of singer-songwriters that seem prone to capo indulgence, offering not only Eb/Ab but Gb and Db as very common. Phooey on those lame singers that can't handle a half step, but I can handle their keys fine.
In Bluegrass, B is fine key for that bluesy sound, riffing in sort-of B minor, which uses the open D string, the open A, and the E of course. It's awkward for a happy-major-key sound but lots of BG is leavened with the blues/jazz scales and B is a cool sound, even if Monroe said "There ain't nothing natural about B natural". Second finger on the G string for the tonic is strong, as is index finger on the A for tonic. Maybe it's the 4th finger tonic on the E that annoys people.
I like the contrast that comes from song orders that move from one key to another with attention to the relation between the songs. Different keys can be exploited for that effect.
Bandcamp -- https://tomwright1.bandcamp.com/
Videos--YouTube
Sound Clips--SoundCloud
The viola is proof that man is not rational
Mark, thanks, I will look into those things you mentioned.
When I learned this some years ago, I was as surprised as you. I had known that many Early Music groups tuned down, but that was about it.
Then you find out that there were so many variations in pitch, you understand why we came to a standard of A440.
And while we're at it, A432 or whatever is NOT spiritually better, nor was a Nazi plot, as some internet myths would have you believe.
https://jakubmarian.com/the-432-hz-v...piracy-theory/
Sounds like bluegrass musicians before electronic tuners, everyone had their own "standard".
Whew! And I thought I was finally getting a handle on things cuz I'm now learning to play White Dove in F instead of D, where I'd always played it previously! It reminds me of just how poorly I play when I come to realize how many other bluegrass and string-band mandolin players have this sort of facility in keys other than G,D,C, and A (and sometimes I'm doubtful of my facility even in those keys....) So little time, so much to learn, but thankfully, with music, there is a dumb-down factor so that even a novice can enjoy playing it.
I played with a songwriter -- when I was just starting on mando -- who would say, on stage, "I think we are going to capo up one (or down) on this tonight. Ok, ready?" I made some pretty bad music on a few of those. Ted's book, and my experience on electric bass, where the only open string I ever struck (unless reaching for or drinking a beer) was low E, really sank home. And usually, I would drink with my right hand, so the hammer ons were not open strings....low pressure gigs. I could walk a 6th pattern with left hand, and self medicate with my right.
The singer gets to decide the key, I think. If you are not the singer, you are part of the show. We have to be ready to play our part. Just let me work on Take 5 in Em instead of Ebm. I'll get to Ebm sooner or later - or tune down.
<><><>><<><><>
Start slow, fade early
Enjoyment is the key. More important than other issues.
But it is a good idea to take a simple tune, and play it in every key. All of them...G...Ab..A..Bb...B...C...Db....D..and so on
Supposedly that was one way Charlie Parker got so good on sax. He'd take a tune and learn to play it in all 12 (some say 15) keys.
Well, on one hand, we all should be able to play in any key at a moment's notice...but really, for a show? a half step? either way?
I always thought a show should be as set as possible, other than solos. It's a SHOW, not a jam session or a coffee house open mike.
I agree. That was him, not me. I don't (won't) play with him any more, for more reasons than that.
Just came back from seeing Arlo Guthrie. Very enjoyable, no great musicianship but superb songs and presence. He made it look like it was off the cuff, but I think every song choice and most of the patter was carefully scripted.
<><><>><<><><>
Start slow, fade early
Arlo is definitely a consummate pro. I've seen a few performances live and many videotaped, and it appears that his material is "scripted" in the same sense any great comedian's material would be. While he may ad lib a bit with embellishments and delivery, his key phrases and pauses, etc. are repeated nearly verbatim from show to show. The stories play as well as a well worn leather jacket wears.
WWW.THEAMATEURMANDOLINIST.COM
----------------------------------
"Life is short. Play hard." - AlanN
----------------------------------
HEY! The Cafe has Social Groups, check 'em out. I'm in these groups:
Newbies Social Group | The Song-A-Week Social
The Woodshed Study Group | Blues Mando
- Advice For Mandolin Beginners
- YouTube Stuff
the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world
I played with a singer who liked to sing in F. I persuaded her to do a "Bob Wills key shift" to D for some of the instrumental breaks - quite effective. Then back to F for the vocals.
Bren
Most of the modulations on Bob Wills records are between neighboring keys along the circle of fifths, e.g., Bb to F (vocal version of Maiden's Prayer). The big exception is New San Antonio Rose which modulates from D to Ab (via F7, Bb7, Eb7), and (IIRC) back, with just an A7.
The natural modulation from F to D would be via an A7 chord, not sure about the best way back. Years ago I wanted to work up a slightly neurotic version of Tennessee Waltz. I started in D, then realized that I had far too many songs in that key, so I worked it out in F (arguably the easiest and most versatile key on the mandolin), then worked it into a medley: TW in F, Missouri Waltz, in D, and Kentucky Waltz in Eb. What's missing is a number in G; that would cover the three most common modulations.
For a nice play-along exercise (in Bluegrass) I suggest Doyle Lawson at the Cannery on YouTube. Not a single tune in D or G! The keys are B (too fast for me), Eb, Bb, C, F (a cappella), Bb, and A (again too fast). As far as I can see Scott Vestal does not use a capo on the 2nd and 6th tune - these keys, and that tempo, are a nice way to get away from Scruggs style clichés on the banjo.
"Too fast" means I cannot improvise in a rhytmically interesting fashion on these songs. I could certainly prepare some solos on each, but I don't enjoy doing that. I want to discover stuff in playing.
Ralph, yes, tuning forks have been in use for centuries, but when I began playing fifty-some-odd years ago in Watson, La. (not bluegrass), no one I knew had a tuning fork. We got one at school when we got a band teacher and started a school band.
Instead, those of us who had a reference usually had a pitch pipe, or used a harmonica, a piano, or another musician we were playing with to tune to. Just because the 440 Hz pitchfork has been around for so long doesn't negate what mandoplumb says.
Ricky Skaggs once asked Earl Scruggs how the Blue Grass Boys tuned; he said that when he was there, they always just tuned to Lester's guitar. I don't think Lester's guitar was always tuned to A 440 - probably a better chance of that in the studio than on the road, and maybe not always in the studio.
I think tunings have standardized a lot more now that people can own a "decent" or at least operational electronic tuner for $2 and up.
WWW.THEAMATEURMANDOLINIST.COM
----------------------------------
"Life is short. Play hard." - AlanN
----------------------------------
HEY! The Cafe has Social Groups, check 'em out. I'm in these groups:
Newbies Social Group | The Song-A-Week Social
The Woodshed Study Group | Blues Mando
- Advice For Mandolin Beginners
- YouTube Stuff
Quite frankly I resent the statement that bluegrass musicians can't use a tuning fork. As has been stated we just tuned to each other because that was what everyone else was doing so you wasn't going to be in tune with them regardless. Don't know why the electronic tuners caught on, maybe people that had problems tuning to one note ( tuning fork) Started the " fad" but I do know that we blue grassers are closer to other bands now than before electronic tuners. Just as a side note I used to tune my guitar to a florescent light. In 60 cycle electricity that buzz is a B tuning to that is almost as hard as tuning to a tuning fork.
Electronic tuners were a fad maybe in the 70s. I bought one at some point just for the novelty of having one. They were expensive. I believe the reason everyone uses them now is because they can afford them and they’re convenient.no matter, I just disagree that everybody but graders used tuning forks. We tuned to each other, and when alone we oftener tuned just by ear and memory regardless of the genre.
WWW.THEAMATEURMANDOLINIST.COM
----------------------------------
"Life is short. Play hard." - AlanN
----------------------------------
HEY! The Cafe has Social Groups, check 'em out. I'm in these groups:
Newbies Social Group | The Song-A-Week Social
The Woodshed Study Group | Blues Mando
- Advice For Mandolin Beginners
- YouTube Stuff
I despise typing on a phone with my thumb. Let the spelling errors stand.
WWW.THEAMATEURMANDOLINIST.COM
----------------------------------
"Life is short. Play hard." - AlanN
----------------------------------
HEY! The Cafe has Social Groups, check 'em out. I'm in these groups:
Newbies Social Group | The Song-A-Week Social
The Woodshed Study Group | Blues Mando
- Advice For Mandolin Beginners
- YouTube Stuff
Simple answer...because it's often up to the vocalist to choose the key that best suits their voice. Tottle likely put those in there to get you familiar with those keys because they do frequently get called for vocal numbers. Despite being a rather annoying key to play in, Bb is actually a pretty comfortable key for a lot of folks to sing in, if they dare to give it a shot.
He too? From Pete Martin's theory book:
Chapter 8
B Major Scale and Chord Arpeggio
I once heard Western Swing fiddle giant Johnny Gimble say “There’s nothing natural about B natural.” By this he was referring to playing in the key of B (called B natural), a key most Western Swing players never play. However, Bluegrass musicians play in B extensively. They know how important the key of B is to their music.
To my ears, the Moonlight Waltz is in F. To be sure it starts in d minor, and there's an A7 in the middle, but from bar 12 to 13 it switches to a full ending in F (C7-F). There never is a full d minor ending! The bridge starts on Bb, the IV chord in F (not the VI chord in d min!), and leads up to C7, the V7 chord in F, followed by an A7 leading back to a reprise of bars 9-16. You could say that about half of the tune is in d min, but the main key really is F.
Several of Tottle's examples are transcriptions of recorded solos. I suppose he chose the tunes to demonstrate a variety of approaches to the mandolin, including the keys most commonly used. And it's important to get acquainted with these keys in 1st position to get a feel for their relationships and their respective possibilities - shoving scale and chord forms up and down the neck is no big deal. Bb (along with F) to me is perhaps the most natural key of them all, with tons of possibilities. But, as I said before, you only know if you've tried.
I used to hate those keys, too. Now, after a couple years of hearing any key called at jams, I've learned the scale shapes for whatever finger happens to land on the root note (an incredibly valuable skill). Learn to use your pinky!! Sooner, the better. You'll get it, just keep trying!
AKA "golfunit"
Bookmarks