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Thread: Breaking the TAB habit

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Breaking the TAB habit

    Mandocrucian has said it best. Only thing I could diagree with is why teachers don't teach this way. I think it's because that was not the way most were taught or taught to teach. I knew a lady some years ago that was the pianist for a fairly large church. The church wanted her to play the organ as she was so good on piano she should be able to play organ. She felt she needed a few lessons and found a teacher. She told me this teacher was the first that ever told her about chords and how the were built, the theory of harmony, or really how to play music. She had been taught see this note punch tis key. Not bad for a start but stopped teaching before helping her become a musician.

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  3. #27
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    Default Re: Breaking the TAB habit

    Still early in my mando journey, so this is not the perspective of someone who has a mastered the skill yet. If you have the key and an mp3, you’re good, and if you have tab to check it against, even better. I put the mp3 in the Amazing Slow Downer app. I listen to the song a bunch, break it into the A and B parts (I’m mostly learning fiddle tunes) and tackle the A part. Just try notes in the key and you will find the starting note. If I think I have it, then I check it against the tab. Very gratifying when I get it right (and I really force myself to be pretty much 100% sure that I am right before checking).

    I have enrolled in various online courses. Matt Flinner provides both mp3s and tabs, so that’s great for the method above. PegHead Nation (at least the Sharon Gilchrist courses) really focuses on learning by ear. Sharon breaks the song into a snippet and plays it, then you play along. I started as a total beginner with that course and now can pick the songs up really fast from her. She doesn’t provide tab, but some other PN courses do. THey provide an mp3 for all songs.

    Mandolessons is good, but he basically is telling you what to do as he goes (unlike Sharon Gilchrist who just plays a small section without telling you where to put your fingers; I even turn the video away) so I haven’t found his videos a good learn by ear support.

    I love Banjo Ben Clarks’s versions of bluegrass songs; but like Mandolessons, his videos tell you where to put your fingers, so not so useful for learning by ear. He provides tab on all of his lessons; sometimes he has an mp3 of just the mandolin melody, sometimes not, so for some songs you’re all set for my favorite method.

  4. #28
    Registered User Simon DS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Breaking the TAB habit

    I took a one year singing course at the local community center, that really helped me to hear tone values, 3rd, 5ths on the mando. The relaxation part (half of the course) helps too.

    Another cool learning aid (for some people) is the Tabledit program, the app is called TEFview -because it uses .tef files. It actually has a mandolin fretboard so you can hear the notes or arpeggios and see where to play them.

  5. #29
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Breaking the TAB habit

    So to summarize how to break the TAB habit (unless you play lute, where it is the correct way to write music):

    1. play by ear - how much of the world's music is taught

    2. read staff notation, as in normal music. For all else not taught by ear

    seems simple enough.

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    Default Re: Breaking the TAB habit

    Back around 1990-91 I was part of a group of 20 who attended a "master class" with David Grisman in Carmel, Calif.

    He asked that the group be divided between TAB readers and standard musical notation readers. All but two of us were shifted to the TAB side of the room (Sunset Center)

    Of the two of us in the musical notation side, I was the only TAB reader.

    I was teaching myself classical mandolin and TAB was not helpful so forced myself to read assisted greatly by Norman Levine.

    Were I to choose one of the two, it would be standard musical notation.

    I am not adept at "ear" playing so had to rely on the crutch of reading music.

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  8. #31
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    Default Re: Breaking the TAB habit

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Hildreth View Post

    Were I to choose one of the two, it would be standard musical notation.

    I am not adept at "ear" playing so had to rely on the crutch of reading music.
    Good choice.

    Like many posters have said, the ear can be improved by training. The more you play by ear, the better you get at it.

  9. #32

    Default Re: Breaking the TAB habit

    I disagree with the premise that you need to "break the TAB habit"...

    Standard notation is useful for some music, and so is TAB...

    I grew up playing classical piano, so I'm perfectly at home reading standard notation when playing mandolin. When playing classical or jazz on the mandolin I always use standard notation.

    BUT, when playing bluegrass, old time etc - music with lots of double-stops, chords, slides, hammer-ons, etc - I can sight-read TAB at a much greater speed than standard notation. I find it much more intuitive for some kinds of music.

    Some classical players will smugly tell you that real players read standard notation, not TAB. Don't listen to them!

    It's very useful to be fluent in both systems, and it's always smart to have multiple tools in your toolbox.
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  10. #33
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    Default Re: Breaking the TAB habit

    Quote Originally Posted by Jstring View Post
    I disagree with the premise that you need to "break the TAB habit"...

    Standard notation is useful for some music, and so is TAB...

    I grew up playing classical piano, so I'm perfectly at home reading standard notation when playing mandolin. When playing classical or jazz on the mandolin I always use standard notation.

    BUT, when playing bluegrass, old time etc - music with lots of double-stops, chords, slides, hammer-ons, etc - I can sight-read TAB at a much greater speed than standard notation. I find it much more intuitive for some kinds of music.

    Some classical players will smugly tell you that real players read standard notation, not TAB. Don't listen to them!

    It's very useful to be fluent in both systems, and it's always smart to have multiple tools in your toolbox.
    Like I said, TAB is great - for lute, lap steel with multiple tunings.

    Also, the fact that you are proficient in standard notation means you can use TAB as a tool, not be limited to it or by it.

    One thing, though - I don't understand this.

    If you can read piano music, two staves, both hands, etc., you are used to seeing many notes at once.

    So why do you have an easier time reading TAB for the "music with lots of double-stops, chords, slides, hammer-ons" all of which can be just as easily notated in standard notation?

    I ask in respect, not as a criticism.

  11. #34
    Mangler of Tunes OneChordTrick's Avatar
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    Default Re: Breaking the TAB habit

    Quote Originally Posted by Jstring View Post
    I disagree with the premise that you need to "break the TAB habit"...

    Standard notation is useful for some music, and so is TAB...

    I grew up playing classical piano, so I'm perfectly at home reading standard notation when playing mandolin. When playing classical or jazz on the mandolin I always use standard notation.

    BUT, when playing bluegrass, old time etc - music with lots of double-stops, chords, slides, hammer-ons, etc - I can sight-read TAB at a much greater speed than standard notation. I find it much more intuitive for some kinds of music.

    Some classical players will smugly tell you that real players read standard notation, not TAB. Don't listen to them!

    It's very useful to be fluent in both systems, and it's always smart to have multiple tools in your toolbox.
    Whilst it's my aim to learn to read standard notation, I can find tab versions of most things that I want to play and if not can create them using Tabledit tab is good enough for me.

    Tabs a lot quicker, some might say lazy , but it does the job for me and I'd rather spend time improving my playing than learinng "theory".

  12. #35
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    Default Re: Breaking the TAB habit

    Quote Originally Posted by OneChordTrick View Post
    Tabs a lot quicker, some might say lazy , but it does the job for me and I'd rather spend time improving my playing than learinng "theory".
    You'd be surprised how much learning theory will improve your playing.

    Just a thought.

  13. #36

    Default Re: Breaking the TAB habit

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    Like I said, TAB is great - for lute, lap steel with multiple tunings

    So why do you have an easier time reading TAB for the "music with lots of double-stops, chords, slides, hammer-ons" all of which can be just as easily notated in standard notation?

    I ask in respect, not as a criticism.
    TAB is great for mandolin as well...

    If you’re seriously asking, and not implying that my standard notation skills are deficient:

    I think that a lot of players who are good at reading standard notation never really give tab a try. After many years of playing both, I find that my brain will often translate a double stop or complex chord a few milliseconds faster in TAB than in standard notation. I see something like 9, 11 in tab and my fingers move without even thinking. If you’re already proficient with standard notation you assume it’s superior and TAB is not worth learning. And, of course it will be slower for you if you haven’t invested serious time with TAB.

    Obviously, the OP should learn standard notation, that goes without saying.

    I just think it’s a shame that some posters (not referring to you specifically) make some players, especially new players, feel the need to “apologize” for reading TAB... and that they feel it’s a “habit to be broken”.
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  14. #37
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    Default Re: Breaking the TAB habit

    Quote Originally Posted by Jstring View Post
    TAB is great for mandolin as well...

    If you’re seriously asking, and not implying that my standard notation skills are deficient:

    I think that a lot of players who are good at reading standard notation never really give tab a try. After many years of playing both, I find that my brain will often translate a double stop or complex chord a few milliseconds faster in TAB than in standard notation. I see something like 9, 11 in tab and my fingers move without even thinking. If you’re already proficient with standard notation you assume it’s superior and TAB is not worth learning. And, of course it will be slower for you if you haven’t invested serious time with TAB.

    Obviously, the OP should learn standard notation, that goes without saying.

    I just think it’s a shame that some posters (not referring to you specifically) make some players, especially new players, feel the need to “apologize” for reading TAB... and that they feel it’s a “habit to be broken”.
    Thanks for the well thought out response.

    I do read TAB for lute and lap steel - but on all other instruments I can read staff notation faster, even double-stops and chords.

    Admittedly, TAB offers no doubt about finger placement.

    Maybe what I don't like is that TAB does not let me "see" the music and hear it in my head like I can with staff notation.

    I guess we are not all wired alike.

  15. #38

    Default Re: Breaking the TAB habit

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post

    Maybe what I don't like is that TAB does not let me "see" the music and hear it in my head like I can with staff notation.
    Can't argue with you there....TAB will always be inferior in that regard
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  17. #39
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    Default Re: Breaking the TAB habit

    Quote Originally Posted by Jstring View Post
    Can't argue with you there....TAB will always be inferior in that regard
    But - TAB works so well for the lap steel when you have numerous tunings.

    I still rather read a new tune on staff notation on steel, though, and use my "home" tuning so I can read.

    But when I learn a tune in a less familiar tuning, then the TAB helps a lot.

    BTW, it wasn't just lute. Guitar, from it's earliest 4 string days, was originally written in TAB:

    http://sologuitarist.net/tablature.htm

    "Tablature is an ancient system of music notation for stringed instruments that is still in use today. It first achieved popularity during the Renaissance. The lines of a staff represent the strings of instruments such as the lute, vihuela and the guitar. "



    6 course lute/vihuela/viola de mano tuned G C F A D G

    before 1560

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    Default Re: Breaking the TAB habit

    That was an interesting article to read, thanks!

    I'd seen lute tab before, but the crazy French combination of tab + letters was new to me...
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  20. #41
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    Default Re: Breaking the TAB habit

    Quote Originally Posted by Jstring View Post
    That was an interesting article to read, thanks!

    I'd seen lute tab before, but the crazy French combination of tab + letters was new to me...
    That's the most common one for lute.

  21. #42
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    Default Re: Breaking the TAB habit

    Quote Originally Posted by Jstring View Post
    I just think it’s a shame that some posters (not referring to you specifically) make some players, especially new players, feel the need to “apologize” for reading TAB... and that they feel it’s a “habit to be broken”.
    John McGann used to speak eloquently about the problems with tab, and the reasons why, in his view, most people would benefit from switching to standard notation. I'm sure those threads are still available through searching the Cafe.

    To me, tablature has its place, which is getting across ideas in the most efficient way, to students who don't yet read music. I like Rich del Grosso's approach, which begins with tablature and transitions to standard notation.
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  23. #43
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    Default Re: Breaking the TAB habit

    Quote Originally Posted by August Watters View Post
    John McGann used to speak eloquently about the problems with tab, and the reasons why, in his view, most people would benefit from switching to standard notation. I'm sure those threads are still available through searching the Cafe.

    To me, tablature has its place, which is getting across ideas in the most efficient way, to students who don't yet read music. I like Rich del Grosso's approach, which begins with tablature and transitions to standard notation.
    And to add, John was a very skilled tab writer. His side business OAI (I think it was called) provided custom transcriptions in either format one desired. I chose tab and boy were they great. I sent him cassette tapes of desired solos - notable ones were Sam Bush on Berserkely off a Mark O'Connor record; Mike Marshall on Key Signator off a live Psychograss show (this one was multipage!); Rick Allred, Jimmy Gaudreau, Doyle Lawson, some others. He hand-wrote the tabs, very clearly, with chords. In checking his work, he was spot on. The earliest ones he did for me were circa 1988, the latest from shortly before he passed.

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    Default Re: Breaking the TAB habit

    Here is how I am FINALLY getting better at learning by ear after years of making no progress at it. This is from a Suzuki piano method for the slow kids that don't pick up playing by ear right away.

    You will need a tuner app on your phone like device. Then I did step 1 until I could do it pretty much every time, then step 2 and so on. It seems overly simple, but for me putting a solid basic skill down has really helped.

    1. Sing a generic note that is easy to reach and see what the tuner thinks it is. (For me it was pretty much a C)
    2. Play that and sing to what seems like matching. Check it by looking at the tuner. Repeat until you can sing it while playing it.
    3. Do the same thing working out Do re mi up and down from your happy note. Basically you are learning what singing the notes sound like it your head. ( I was always about a half step off at the beginning.) Going from your happy note out makes the singing part less work.
    4. Play the note and damp it. Then sing it and check if it is right. Just like step 3 except you have to remember the note.
    5. After this you can do intervals where you play the notes as singing, then play/damp/sing. The kid version called for flash cards, but I just rotate back between common ones in the songs I play. 1-3 or 1-5 up and down to start and then work out others. Just keep singing to where you think it is right, then check the tuner app.

    After a couple months of this for 15 minutes a day my ear for singing the note I hear is getting better and all the other advice on learning by ear is making more sense to me. A side benefit is singing in tune better.

    Hope this helps.

  25. #45
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    Default Re: Breaking the TAB habit

    I'm definitely in the notation camp - I can read notation pretty well having started to learn it from age 6 onwards! Where I find TAB useful is chord fingerings - which I didn't grow up with - not as much requirement on the violin.

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